Dragon Knight changes

[LinuxPup]

Oh well.. still not too bad.

[Daltian]

Oh well.. still not too bad.

Good point.

[MadUkranian]

Ha, Ha, Ha
Well stated MadUkranian.........although, I do have ask. Is belly-bucking an actual feat that I can choose? Because if it is, I am going to choose it as soon as possible! I am going to have the first epic belly-bucker on the server.


alasteir

Hey, nobody said a KD had to be pretty! I good bounce from a generous beer gut can be just as effective as a good straight-arm to the chin. All that matters is someone is counting ceiling tiles when it is over.

My follow-up applies less to the Balor and Death Slaad, than with the Solar, but I hope everyone finds it worth considering. If you do a wiki search online you will find the Solar listed as follows: "The greatest of angels, usually close attendants to a deity or champions of some cosmically beneficent task". They are ranked at the top of a heirarchy consisting of 9 celestial beings (given what I read I think the Planetar is grossly underpowered...btw. The being responding to the Gate spell seems more like an Agathinon - warrior angels who are sent on missions to the prime material plane..). Considering Solars are "close attendants to a deity" I don't think it is surprising they would have immunity to KD, or powers of perception beyond that of player characters.

Just my two or so cents... thanks for reading.

[alasteir]

LinuxPup,

Just for clarity on this subject, in regard to my original post. I am in no way requesting that you take away KD immunity from any monster/summons/pure class paladin, or any other PC in order to "balance the server". I only ask that you reconsider taking away the benefits in order to keep the DK still somewhat powerful. If I can recall correctly, the Discipline rating on my DK (pre wipe Solar summoned by an Aasimar, good-domained, cleric with epic spell focus in conjuration) was not really that high (possibly around 49). I believe that particular toon had 34 caster levels. I would not want to see any DK summons be able to be knocked around by ice efreets, polar bears, and the like.

The devs and dms have made 'Neversummer' a really cool server, and it is obvious that you (devs), and the dms really solicit player feedback....thank you for responding to my post.

Korr,

Point taken. I don't disagree with your opinion on the power of epic lvl PCs. I just don't think that KD immunity and a flat +20 to spot was unbalancing the game. In fact, I agree with the point that a few players have already mentioned about the Slaad. Mr. Froggy is really going to die quickly, when those amazon lanceresses are knocking him to his knees on a regular basis.

Daltian,

I agree the Slaad is a tad underpowered, in fact, I would like to go for broke and solicit LinuxPup and the rest of the staff in giving all of the DK's a little juicing.......give those PM and BG epic summons a little run for their money! Although I must say, we will have to agree to disagree on the hierarchy of the DK summons, because I feel the Slaad should play third fiddle to the Solar and Balor...........He is a frog for crying out loud! Ha Ha

MadUkranian,

Good information on the Solars and Planetars.....good stuff. I would think that the CLAD and FON crew would jump on board with this one!

[Shhhhhhh]

I agree the Slaad is a tad underpowered, in fact, I would like to go for broke and solicit LinuxPup and the rest of the staff in giving all of the DK's a little juicing.......give those PM and BG epic summons a little run for their money! Although I must say, we will have to agree to disagree on the hierarchy of the DK summons, because I feel the Slaad should play third fiddle to the Solar and Balor...........He is a frog for crying out loud! Ha Ha

MadUkranian,

Good information on the Solars and Planetars.....good stuff. I would think that the CLAD and FON crew would jump on board with this one!

Considering what it takes to get a DK and comparing it to what it takes to get a PM or BG epic summon, its not weird the PM or BG summon is stronger. And they should be quite a bit stronger I think.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Speaking for myself. There shouldn't be a hierarchy among the different variations of the Dragon Knights. Only differences in the benefits. I think the Slaad should be more powerful than it is, but that's just me. In pvp they do some cool things but for the most part I've always been thoroughly disappointed with the Dragon Knights. The only summons that have ever impressed me in pvp were the BG and PM summons. Otherwise, Dragon Knights are just something that can help you level imo and are a wasted feat. I'd rather bump my DC on spells up by one, or take Armor Skin. In the end, Dragon Knights die quickly and rarely cast the spells you want them to when you want them to. They're a distraction in pvp and nothing more.

For a well played caster, that distraction can be all you need so they serve their purpose. However, I wouldn't expect them or want them to be able to go toe to toe with any epic melee characters.

They're fine the way they are imo. But then I don't have any characters that use dragon knights, and don't have any plans for them in the future either.

[Blystos Re]

Jump on board? Maybe...but I kind of think this is just one more way for NC to get owned. True, the DK summons weren't huge by any means, but they really were a big help in spotting those twinked-out SD builds without being forced to don the pointy ears for keen senses. They were one of the few really good lines of defenses that we had against HiPSers, and were really great when an enemy caster would set off a Hellball.

Taking away the knockdown immunity makes them far less "Epic". I think if you're going to build for summons and you're going to burn a feat on it (especially as a cleric) you really ought to get something larger than life. Even with KD immune, there was no way they could stand up to the PM or BG summon. Even just the epic planar mobs spam knockdown so much that you need discipline near 70 to keep off your bum. How is a good caster supposed to do that?

...and seriously, if knockdown is the only way you can beat a Solar then you have some serious problems. The solar doesn't have (or doesn't use) knockdown, so there's really no danger in being immobilized by it. Slash immunity/resist, AC of about 45 and some neg damage output and you can go toe to toe. Anyone who's made it to 30 on this server should probably understand that concept, so I'm not even sure why I'm explaining it...

We're always getting told to quit whining and build better if we run into an obstacle in the game. What happened to that?

Can NC have rogues yet?

How about now?




Now?

[Daltian]

Btw, did I mention how easy is to kill DK summon with quivering palm?

[MasterYoda]

Jump on board? Maybe...but I kind of think this is just one more way for NC to get owned. True, the DK summons weren't huge by any means, but they really were a big help in spotting those twinked-out SD builds without being forced to don the pointy ears for keen senses. They were one of the few really good lines of defenses that we had against HiPSers, and were really great when an enemy caster would set off a Hellball.

Taking away the knockdown immunity makes them far less "Epic". I think if you're going to build for summons and you're going to burn a feat on it (especially as a cleric) you really ought to get something larger than life. Even with KD immune, there was no way they could stand up to the PM or BG summon. Even just the epic planar mobs spam knockdown so much that you need discipline near 70 to keep off your bum. How is a good caster supposed to do that?

...and seriously, if knockdown is the only way you can beat a Solar then you have some serious problems. The solar doesn't have (or doesn't use) knockdown, so there's really no danger in being immobilized by it. Slash immunity/resist, AC of about 45 and some neg damage output and you can go toe to toe. Anyone who's made it to 30 on this server should probably understand that concept, so I'm not even sure why I'm explaining it...

We're always getting told to quit whining and build better if we run into an obstacle in the game. What happened to that?

Can NC have rogues yet?

How about now?




Now?

Quit whining Build better.

( you happy now )

[MadUkranian]

I agree... there should not be a heirarchy amongst the DK summons, but different powers/abilities. I also agree they were underpowered before the changes. Especially considering to max one out you are looking at a total of 4 feats along with racial and domain (for cleric) choices for your character that you may not have preferred.

I don't have a lot of experience with PMs or BGs so can't comment, but it would be nice if the DK could hold it's own a little better considering the dedication it takes to maximize one.

[alasteir]

Yes. I have to agree with most of the points that have been made on this post..... It seems as if we all have the same opinion of the DK summons, with a few exceptions.

Blystos Re,
I agree, make the DK summons tough, especially considering the feat(s) cost. And yes, I agree, the solar's spot bonus was extremely helpful (probably their best feature). However, I think you may have misunderstood the point I was trying to make about KD immunity. I was not referring to my epic level PCs being vulnerable to a KD attack, especially considering the fact that they don't use it. I was referring to the KD immunity of the DK. In my opinion, if you take away the DK's KD immunity, it would make them even more vulnerable.

CrazyHorse & Mad Ukranian,
Yeah. I think the other DKs are cool as well. I was half-joking about the hierarchy.

In summary, I am not asking the devs to make the DK an absolute monster. I am just requesting that they keep the concept of an epic conjurer a viable concept. I am aware that this is not a great PvP build, but it could be an interesting one. "Balancing out the server", can create a rash of generic PvP builds. We have already seen some dramatic changes with the recent changes in the protection spells and the barbarian's terrifying rage. The devs have done a very good job at removing a lot of the cheese out of the game, but every now and again, they could use some constructive feedback,

Thank you
alasteir

[Blystos Re]

alasteir, I think we were talking about the same thing. I will be really sad if knockdown immunity is taken away from the DK summons, partially because KD/Disarm is such a popular move in pvp (and in Dwarves for that matter...).

The other part of me was kind of ticked last night when I ran through Eastern Frontier. I can land a knockdown on the Desciples there - but it doesn't work because they're knockdown-immune! These guys are...what...CR 10? So I inquired about this to the staff and was told that there are a lot of changes coming round the bend.

We shall see.

And yes, Havok. I feel much better now that someone has told me what I should do. It felt kind of weird there without that answer from anyone.

[Korr]

Nod its kind of annoying that there are low CRs out there with Bioware TrueSeeing and Immune to KD... thank god theyre low CR tho !!!

[Eldaquen]

Wait - solars and dragonform got nerfed - sigh....some days just not worth reading the forums.

[MasterYoda]

why does everything have to be nerf?

how about balancing things out so there is no uber class?

how about the dms want it to be more skill based than luck?

man i would love to see everything get nerfed down to a +2 stick and watch the complaints there.

ill admit that i have complained about certain nerfs before but maby once or twice but multiple pages is pretty rediculess.

DK can get kded. So can my Barbarian, Sorc, Ice giants, Ogers, Planar bosses, man the list goes on and on.

build better, Stop whining, ect , ect , ect.....