No player list...

[Cijah]

It's sure to make relic raiding/defending more interesting in the future by not knowing exact builds .... and just in time for the relic event! Gone is the rock paper scissors. Hooray! (To a lesser degree)

I'll be watching how the regulars fair and whether it's the player that is better or the build. Some builds are forgiving but one-shot wonders or targeted builds will surely suffer in the current meta.

[Ade]

It is silly to keep players from seeing what Level/Class others are.

Let's look at this from an "in-game" lore standpoint: Sure, as your character levels, there are no changes to the actual polygon model, but it CAN and SHOULD be surmised that a character that is thousands of times as powerful as another (ie. Comparing a Lv. 40 to a Lv. 1) should LOOK tougher. And by this I do not mean simply gear...he should look stronger, wiser, more intimidating, whatever.

Since there are no physical changes that come with leveling up, the "log in" information was an ample substitute. It was information that was provided to the player that the player would ideally be able to surmise by looking at the actual character (but he can't due to the game's limitations).

Also, some classes have abilities that make them stick out like a sore thumb, while others don't. If I pop my "Aspect of the Deity," my opponent immediately knows I'm a pure paladin. But he could have an arsenal of multi-class moves that could keep me guessing and trying to beat him, giving him easy wins and a huge ego whist I try to figure out what I should be using against him.

In the end, this will only encourage lopsided PvP and add yet another dimension of unforgiving trial and error to the game.

This is also unfair to already established toons whose builds are commonly known. Perhaps the addition of this feature would be useful were there ever to be another server wipe.

[Amoenotep]

look at it from a D&D stand point. you don't know what lvls of what your fellow party members are. sure you think they have a bit of rogue or dipped into a caster class....but you don't know for sure.

ever play a campaign with that holier than thou paladin who teamed with a chaotic thief and did not know it? the pally know's there is something not quite right about him....but just can't quite figure it out.

it brings the player base more in line with having less meta knowledge of ppl around them and gives them more of a reason to pay attention.

[Lorkar]

Ok I can accept what you are saying Tep, but Ade makes a valid point. In the PnP game characters can tell the difference between the 1st level fighter and the 21st level fighter. The difference in demeanor, stature, equipment and physical wear and tear makes it easier to gauge an opponent. If you are going to take away the player level list then by all rights you should make all buffs that show up visually be seen by only the person who has the buffs. The only exceptions being the ones that would be visible to all like darkfire and continual flame. Maybe now that the level list is gone the threat indicator should be brought back since it does not tell you levels but gives you a basic idea if someone is comparable to you in level. This works in a couple of ways. First, a level 40 has been stated as being almost godly in abilities. Second, a lowbie would not dare to strike a god unless they had a deathwish. Third, a an almost godly character would not notice a lowbie to begin with as it would be beneath him. This would allow for alignments to play out better since the good aligned would be less likely to strike down a weaker opponent than say an evil aligned character would.

[Amoenotep]

as you have undoubtedly figured out....you can tell approximately what lvl someone is by the gear they wear. alot of you guys recognize types of gear and what tiers certain gear shows up. another thing is you can't tell what buffs someone has or what spells they cast in the logs until you get enough lvls/pts into your spellcraft to figure it out....and if you have enough pts in your spellcraft to figure out what spell it is, you already know what lvls they are going to be or are approaching.

[Rainswept]

My 2 bits is that I decide which toon I'm playing that day depending on how many people near that level I can find. The list was a great tool for seeing which level I can find people to party with.

It's not a huge deal either way, but I definitely liked having the list. It's a bit annoying to log on one toon, and later hear "Oh man, you missed a great level 17 party earlier"

[Korr]

Excellent, noone will ever know that Deus Ex Machina is level 40. Hes still stuck in level 25 cleric gear!!!

I guess I will drag around some rods of dispell with me too, anyone with buffs on ill pop off a dispell at them and know the caster level within 2 (considering they might have arcane defense abjuration). Or bring some bigby scrolls to see the concentration/tumble of characters.

I agree with Ade, but since all we can do is rely on gear, you can learn ALOT from it(and in turn deceive with it). A level 20 wizard will likely be wearing the sunken isle grand mystic helm, or crown of frost/skara helm for the slots/intelligence. You see someone in platemail likely their reflex is lacking, someone in robes will be lower on one of the other 2 saves (more often than not). Remember Ade your paladin has a neat little token that will detect evil and neutral, it just became alot more usefull. No longer can we look at the login list and say "Oooh theres a blackguard, its smitin time".

I like this change, it means alot more to casters I think though. Pop off a few low level spells to test the saves of an enemy before deciding which high level spell to shoot at them. I would though like to see things more intricately fashioned toward the mystique of others, how I dont know . . . but I think this could be a good base for something big.

[LinuxPup]

Adding the threat indicator would be the exactly the thing I don't want to do... why disable anther route of metagaming just add another one? It's great as is.

[Lorkar]

How is the threat indicator metagaming? I think of it as a visual aid in determination how dangerous someone is. In real life if I see someone that is acting hostile and they are 5 foot 3 138 pounds, chances are I wont take them as seriously with me being 6 foot 1 and 255 pounds. Now take a guy 6 foot 6 and 350 pounds, chances are less likely I would mess with him as he would be a greater threat. See...threat indicator.

[LinuxPup]

Its metagaming because the difficultie "Very Difficult", etc. can be used to find out the exact level that someone is. Let their crits or hellball be their threat indicator

[Dalan]

That 5 foot 3, 138 lb non-threat, may very well be able to beat the snot out of the 6 foot 6, 350 lb threat.

Seems to me, that you just proved Linux's point.

[Ace-of-Spades]

Sure, the little guy can beat the big guy sometimes, it's called rolling a 20.
I tend to agree with Lorkar really, if I am faced with a man holding a gun, his CR is Impossible. I don't really care though, don't add the CR display back in, it was merely a suggestion of mine. I wasn't sure if there was something against it or what, so I figured I'd throw it out there. Now I see there is something against it and a reason why it isn't used.

[Rowdy Spirit]

My woman gives me funny looks when I talk to an empty room with a headset on.

Yeah!!! For some reason talking into the screen has a really low FAF (female acceptance factor) rating Needless to say, as long as I have to have my computer in the living room, Teamspeak is a no go

Just get the woman on Teamspeak too... that's what Cent did with me.

[Korr]

Cut out the headphones, my girl gets a kick out of alot of what goes on in teamspeak.

[Ade]

as you have undoubtedly figured out....you can tell approximately what lvl someone is by the gear they wear.

Metal and Cloth Dyes, Metal and Cloth Dyes, Metal and Cloth Dyes... -_-