Wood Elf and martial crafters

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Blystos Re
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Blystos Re »

I agree, we need some interesting half-elf subraces and Rogues in NC.
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cluckster
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by cluckster »

Blystos Re wrote:I agree, we need some interesting half-elf subraces and Trickery Domain for TC.
I couldn't agree more! :D :lol: :twisted:

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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Twiggy »

Shadowalker wrote:Small note.. a reduction to Chr, is not necessarly saying that your less attactive physically. It can also indicate a lack of people skills. The Wild and Wood elf being more solitary simply havent had the need to develop those skills.

good point.

and barg i agree with u on the fastness of NWN. however what i'm doing and the shockput thing are completely different. One is a rule. the other is ideas made, and thus able to be improved upon. if the shockput was changed it would no longer be shockput. However if these guys are changed they would still be what they are.

Just some ideas. do wat u want with them. However when i make a ranger and want a race that capitalizes on those stats, and realize that the race that doesn't do it isn't even a ranger favored class i go "really?" the wild elf and wood elf just seem to be backwards to me. and the wild elf has some stats that arn't even class skills but are cross class. that makes no sense to me. When something says favored class, that says to me that all of it's bonuses are there to improve upon that class. when it doesn't I scratch my head.

BTW i could make a fairly competitive build of any subrace.

Half-elf is the same as full blood human with some extras, but no extra first feat. that race could be utalized more.
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by mining »

By DnD rules, favoured classes are generally amazingly screwed up.
Elf- Wizard? Whut? +2 dex < -2 con for a wizard. Blegh.
Gnome- Bard? Whut? +2 con? Huh.
Wilf elf- Sorceror? Whut? +2 dex, -2 int. Blegh.
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Midterm »

Half-Elf should be given -ECL for their troubles.

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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Lokey »

mining wrote:By DnD rules, favoured classes are generally amazingly screwed up.
Elf- Wizard? Whut? +2 dex < -2 con for a wizard. Blegh.
Gnome- Bard? Whut? +2 con? Huh.
Wilf elf- Sorceror? Whut? +2 dex, -2 int. Blegh.
Nah, dex is a caster's second favorite stat (con is close--unless you're a grapple wizard, but then the game is already over). Initiative is everything, unless there's some way to avoid the like two situations nerveskitter + celerity don't let you nuke something first no questions without a die roll.
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Rufio »

In all, complaining about a race's favored class isn't going to go anywhere. There are role-play reasons for the favored classes that are grounded in DnD lore, and you can't change that. There are also balance reasons for the classes being how they are now, so you can't really just change around stats on a race at a whim. I know I've said it before, but at this point in the server's life, nothing will ever get changed with the reasoning "beacuse it should be like that". There have to be valid balance reasons. Look at assassin and blackguard that were changed recently. There were many people that addressed valid concerns with the power of the classes, and many people chimed in and agreed. Assassin wasn't changed because "they should be sneakier" and blackguard wasn't changed because "they should have a scarier summon", but because their power levels did not equal that of other builds.

If there are thoughts that wood elves are underpowered in general (not just for one class), I'm sure there are people that will agree, and if enough people agree, that is likely to cause some sort of change, but right now favored classes are role-play oriented and mostly meaningless for power balance.
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Alkapwn »

sounds like Twiggy just likes to complain for complaining sake. "This race is not at all fit for my build!! It must be changed!!"

Favored class is just a bonus xp 100*lvl/levelup which in itself is awesome.
Pure Humans get Favored Class bonus every level regardless of class. Doesn't mean the are well suited for making the best of everyclass though.
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Twiggy
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Twiggy »

Alkapwn wrote:sounds like Twiggy just likes to complain for complaining sake. "This race is not at all fit for my build!! It must be changed!!"

Favored class is just a bonus xp 100*lvl/levelup which in itself is awesome.
Pure Humans get Favored Class bonus every level regardless of class. Doesn't mean the are well suited for making the best of everyclass though.

that is so untrue.......i only complain for complainings sake when i am bored.


but seriously. rufio makes a point. and it looks likes others share at least a little in common with what i have said. In either case, i can make a build using another race. I posted this because why have a race when another race does it better. Make a race that follows it's favored class and does something different and useful. Wild elf i would use over wood elf for both druid and ranger. IDK bout fighter, but i would prolly make a human for that. so that leaves, why make a wood elf?
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Alkapwn »

Twiggy wrote:why make a wood elf?
Ranger Trapper/Spotter

Str bonus is good cause traps are heavyish
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Shadowalker »

Alkapwn wrote:
Twiggy wrote:why make a wood elf?
Ranger Trapper/Spotter

Str bonus is good cause traps are heavyish
Especially those NC Epic Poo Flinging Traps
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Eldaquen
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Eldaquen »

Why make a Wood elf?

A case study based on a fighter class and vs a Pure Human.

For convenience sake:
Wood Elf stats:
+2 Str
+2 Dex
-2 Int
-2 Cha
-2 Con

Human stats:
No adjustment they are what they are. However human races receive +1 skill point per level.

Each build is different, but for this case study lets just assume the maker wants maxed Str, and good Dex (perhaps a fighter monk combination of sum sort).

What does choosing Wood elf give over taking Pure Human. Well for one, the fighter class tend to have a low Will save. Now there are two other builds options that are able to cast a sleep affect: one is a dragon breath and the other is a harper class spell, at least in NS4. Not that those abilities are used much but they exist. An elven fighter would automatically be immune to sleep whereas the human version is going to be affected by sleep now and then. Inconvenient but rivals tend to forget to not wake a sleeping foe, so not an usually a huge impact (when will people learn to let a sleeping fighter be (sigh) but I degress).

Using subraces, the highest starting ability score anyone can reach is 20. A Pure Human highest score in any ability score is 18, since lack an adjust to abilities. What does this mean? Any subrace that has +2 to a stat or two receives +1 to a skill or talent (for lack of a better term). For example +2 str gives +1 to ab for that build. I know the veterans know this but please bear with me just in case someone new reads this post.

Each build starts with 30 starting ability points to spend on the 6 ability categories. As one spends those points on an ability, the incremental cost of each increase goes up. To achieve 18 in any one ability the builder would spend 16 starting ability points.

Base Ability Score....Cost.........Total Cost
8...............................0..............0
9...............................1..............1
10.............................1..............2
11.............................1..............3
12.............................1..............4
13.............................1..............5
14.............................1..............6
15.............................2..............8
16.............................2.............10
17.............................3.............13
18.............................3.............16

The +2 adjustment given by a subrace may be used to redirect those starting ability points to a different score. For example if your happy starting with 18 Str; Wood elf gives +2 to str so only need to spend 10 starting ability points in Str, saving 6 ability points to spend on a different ability score.

So in this study if starting with 18 Str and 18 Dex, the Wood elf version saves 12 starting ability points to spend on other scores over a Pure Human. Wood elf reduces the expense of a starting 18 Str and 18 Dex from 32 spent points (which is not possible) to 20 spent points. This is the reason to make a Wood Elf over a Pure human. Ok yes, Wood elf has negatives too, I am getting to that.

Now Wood Elf has negatives to Int, Cha, and Con. A fighter build is not really concerned with their Cha score, so it does not matter if they have an 8 or a 6 score. So in terms of a fighter build only concerned with the -2 Int and -2 Con which comes with choosing Wood Elf as the race..

If start with 18 Str and 18 Dex the Wood Elf builder spent 20 starting points, leaving 10 to spend. A Pure Human builder would start with 18 Str and 17 Dex, for a total cost of 29 points spent with 1 remaining. The Wood Elf builder will be able to offset the negatives to Int and Con since it has 10 starting points to spare. The human builder either starts with 8 Con and 8 Int or must reduce either Str or Dex to increase those abilities. So for this study a high starting Str/Dex fighter build for the respective races might look like:

Wood Elf
Str 18 (spent 10, 16 score to start +2 adjustment), +4 Modifier
Dex 18 (spent 10, 16 score to start, +2 adjustment) +4 Modifer
Con 10 (spent 4 to reach 12 then -2 adjustment) +0 Modifer
Int 12 (spent 6 to reach 14 then -2 adjustment) +1 Modifer
Wis 8 (spent 0) -1 Modifier
Cha 6 (spent 0 and then -2 adjustment) -2 Modifier

Spent 10 on Str, 10 on dex, 4 on Con, 6 on Int, 0 on Wis, and 0 on Cha = 30 spent points.

Pure Human
Str 18 (spent 16) +4 Modifier
Dex 17 (spent 13) +3 Modifier
Con 9 (spent 1) -1 Modifier
Int 8 (spent 0) -1 Modifier
Wis 8 (spent 0) -1 Modifier
Cha 8 (spent 0) -1 Modifier

Spent 16 on Str, 13 on Dex, 1 on Con, 0 on Int, 0 on Wis, and 0 on Cha = 30 spent points.

Fighters will need decent hps and enough skill points so both are important. Fighter class receives 2 + Int Modifer skill points per level after first level.
So using the above and assuming pure fighter for simplicity sake:
The Wood Elf will receive 3 skill points per level after 1st level.
-2 pts +1 Modifier = 3
-Total skill points if pure fighter 123 skill points.
-The Wood Elf would receive 10 hps per level for a total of 400 hps at 40th level.

The Pure Human receives 2 skill points per level after 1st level.
-2 pts +1 human skill point bonus -1 Modifier = 2
-Total skill points if pure fighter 81 skill points.
-The Pure Human would receive 9 hps per level for a total of 360 hps at 40th level.

So a Wood Elf has in my opinion has slightly better starting ability scores if the starting ability points are spent wisely. Wood Elf is immune to sleep effects, and since fighters have low Will this might be useful to have vs. some dragons and harper scouts. Wood Elf pure fighter ends up with higher skill points and hps (if they spent wisey) than a Pure Human pure fighter.

That is why one would choose Wood Elf over Pure Human for a fighter or ranger build. It is in the scaling cost of the higher ability scores at creation that makes the choosing Wood Elf worth the negatives with the race. Now if you change the ability scores around then you might come to different conclusion. Again each build is different, but if go in knowing how to offset the negatives then it might just be worth creating a build with Wood Elf vs another race. How you spend those ability points at the beginning impacts the value of choosing one race over another.

Regarding favored classes: Favored class makes leveling easier but at level 40 and in a pvp fight the favored class is not important at all. Perhaps if there was a bonus gained by choosing the favored class over a different class in skill points, ability points, ab, ac, saves, or spell DC's, then perhaps the race's favored class would matter. But as it is now; once the build is 40 it does not matter if the favored class is any, fighter, cleric, etc., build is already at maximum level.
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Alkapwn »

Keen senses + trap finding = win
no keen senses = lose
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mining
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by mining »

Alkapwn wrote:Keen senses + trap finding = win
no keen senses = lose
I can walk in detect mode if I'm looking for traps, otherwise I'm liable to run into them :?
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Re: Wood Elf and martial crafters

Post by Shadowalker »

mining wrote:
Alkapwn wrote:Keen senses + trap finding = win
no keen senses = lose
I can walk in detect mode if I'm looking for traps, otherwise I'm liable to run into them :?
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