Thank you to our new dev

[Bargeld]

I have a 'bigs' sd wiz with conj and evo focus. I wouldn't have taken conj focus given the current change. Is it a major deal? No, I haven't even played that toon in months. My sorc on the other hand will be hurt more by this... No evo focus (which I avoided because it required 6 feats before instead of 3 now). And mord, bigs 7 actually worked against many toons without any focus before, although there were only a few that had no recourse against it (FoM, dismissal).

I just ask that both sides (devs and players) keep an open mind on major changes like this, and that the devs are willing to revisit them based on feedback after a good amount of time has passed to really 'feel' the impact on play. At the same time, the players need to give meaningful feedback. Saying that your abj based sorc/bg or your necro wiz sd is useless because they can't bigs anything is a rather obvious effect of these changes. I would think that playing the existing bigs mages some and even building new around this and seeing how they work would be a requirement before offering anything that could be considered 'meaningful feedback'. Yeah it looks like it hurts, and it probably will, but if the focused mages are unbalanced and weak, then maybe these stats need to be increased some. Who knows? (yet)

As far as it happening before AO jobs... see my first post.

Oh, and CoTs and stunners are gonna need nerfs to even this out! Drow = evil only and CoT = good only, too! And fix the disc on the BG pet! And, and.... dammit, AO jobs look a long way away!

[Cahaal]

Additionaly testing showed that all shifter shapes (in use by players) have enough STR to overcome Bigby 7.

[Hyk]

Yeah, but you can lower their AC by 4!

[Rufio]

I have a 'bigs' sd wiz with conj and evo focus. I wouldn't have taken conj focus given the current change. Is it a major deal? No, I haven't even played that toon in months. My sorc on the other hand will be hurt more by this... No evo focus (which I avoided because it required 6 feats before instead of 3 now). And mord, bigs 7 actually worked against many toons without any focus before, although there were only a few that had no recourse against it (FoM, dismissal).

I just ask that both sides (devs and players) keep an open mind on major changes like this, and that the devs are willing to revisit them based on feedback after a good amount of time has passed to really 'feel' the impact on play. At the same time, the players need to give meaningful feedback. Saying that your abj based sorc/bg or your necro wiz sd is useless because they can't bigs anything is a rather obvious effect of these changes. I would think that playing the existing bigs mages some and even building new around this and seeing how they work would be a requirement before offering anything that could be considered 'meaningful feedback'. Yeah it looks like it hurts, and it probably will, but if the focused mages are unbalanced and weak, then maybe these stats need to be increased some. Who knows? (yet)

As far as it happening before AO jobs... see my first post.

Oh, and CoTs and stunners are gonna need nerfs to even this out! Drow = evil only and CoT = good only, too! And fix the disc on the BG pet! And, and.... dammit, AO jobs look a long way away!

QFT

I also updated the wiki to reflect the changes, but left the old info in too just in case. I tried to make the way they work as clear as possible, since the change log is concise, but not necessarily clear, let me know if something is wrong or confusing.

[Bargeld]

Just tested using my my bigs wiz sd 35/5 vs elda and many forms. Here are the detailed results:

First off, none of the bigs can be empowered or maxed... it's just not an option in the spellbook per bioware.

5: AB reduced by 8. Add a space into the combat log after the colon "AB reduction of foe:8". It jus looks funny lol. Works great... guaranteed effect, can be extended.

6: This is the winner for sure, but still needs tweaks, not sure what is possible though. I managed a 296 damage crit (with 20 buldge resisted, so would have been >300 damage). Normal damage around 110, all physical. 3 sec KD is too short IMO. The knockback distance is a set max range, about 1/2 sight range. If a mage is farther than that, there is no knockback, just a kd. This could be detrimental to the caster, as it would be nice to push them farther than 1/2 sight, cuz that's pretty close for a mage with 370 hp and 45 ac and no disc. Max AC to hit is caster level+20 +d20, or 80... for most mages at 35/5 split, it's 75, which is kinda low IMO... but there are ways around this Not extendable.

7: This is scary, but neat. Would be nice to know the str check for resisting... basically anything with 50 str resisted me. But a 20 str resisted me sometimes. That range is too wide IMO. The slow effect is negated by Fom (as expected) but the slow effect is also too short IMO. Not extendable either... might be a good tweak to allow this. Caster makes a tumble check after the target is pulled; toons that know this will spam KD on the caster making the spell more detrimental than beneficial. Maybe you could cast then run away and avoid the tumble check, didn't test that far into it.

8: Meh. Needs more % fail, like 75-90. Not extendable and with a focused 35/5, you get less than 25% chance of failure for 3 rounds. Which means (by the odds) you won't have any effect. It needs to be reliable in order to be effective. Extendable would be nice too. 3 round duration is a good base.

9: AC reduction. I don't remember seeing a combat log report of the actual amount like with the 5. But it works. Guaranteed effect. AC reduction is significant enough. Good combo vs high AC is 9 then 6.

Not worthless at all, but at the same time, this was a focused mage caster. I can see some of these messing up the PvM possibly (reducing boss AB AC or causing spell failures). Gotta see how well it works against the CoTs. Mord, bigs7 IGM spam was the only way to beat them out of SL previously, and thats a 3-6 round kill (if they heal/FoM themselvs maybe more).

[Nyeleni]

You do me too much honour if you mistake me for Eldaquen. Even more: her name may be sullied by mine .

I agree with Bargeld as I was testing it with him earlier. Overall I don't think the new bigbies are utter rubbish; - after some fine tuning -, they could be even better than before.

Altho I can see how it can upset quite some builds out there. As it always does when something gets changed.
Maybe put the focus on conjuration for lvl 7 and 9 back. Otoh specializing only on evocation would make things easier.



PS. As it is IGMS isn't even the best weapon against CoTs with a mage. But I won't tell you what I would do, obviously.


PPS. I know I shouldnt answer to a big rant but still: The reason why people leave a server, NS4 in this case, isn't because there are changes. I would even go so far, that changes are the only thing that will keep a world alive. It shows that the devs care enough to still work at it.
If something drove me away from NS4, which I still am retiring from, it is a general attitude of some players (including me, and this reason is only minor in comparison to) and just boredom, because I think I've seen it all on Aetheria and the planes.

I'm still convinced NS4 is one of the best developed worlds in NWN1.

Although respect goes both ways: This is a reminder to both the "powers" that rule over us and to my fellow players. And it helps with communication in general, *chuckle.

[Amoenotep]

bigby redo has been on the coals for a while, each one should have a specific purpose for different situations. the spells were horrible before this and keeping them straight was even worse.

6 didn't even change much...it just got an ab/damage boost, its always been my favorite: physical damage is resistable damage...just find out what you need.


instead of crying about how much your caster sucks now why not try to make it work or give the changes a chance to settle..see how they do

ao jobs on the way

[Rufio]

Just tested using my my bigs wiz sd 35/5 vs elda and many forms. Here are the detailed results:
6: This is the winner for sure, but still needs tweaks, not sure what is possible though. I managed a 296 damage crit (with 20 buldge resisted, so would have been >300 damage). Normal damage around 110, all physical. 3 sec KD is too short IMO. The knockback distance is a set max range, about 1/2 sight range. If a mage is farther than that, there is no knockback, just a kd. This could be detrimental to the caster, as it would be nice to push them farther than 1/2 sight, cuz that's pretty close for a mage with 370 hp and 45 ac and no disc. Max AC to hit is caster level+20 +d20, or 80... for most mages at 35/5 split, it's 75, which is kinda low IMO... but there are ways around this Not extendable.

max ab should more than that unless it does not work as advertised, I think you might have forgoten spell focuses. A level 40 mage would get 38 (95% caster level) + 6 (epic spell focus) + 22 (max possible int/cha mod with AQ3, Epic spell focus and a +4 book). That gets you 66 base ab, so you could roll up to 86. It might be a stretch for some mages to hit a 22 int or cha mod, but getting 64 base with a 20 int or cha mod should be quite reasonable.

I haven't done as much testing as you have yet, but a longer kd effect would worry me. We already see how a 1 round kd can be an "i win" button with hellball or a fighter rumble. Since the spell can be recast once per round, and already does damage with the best of spells, extending the kd would make it really overpowered really fast. As it is, this spell has the potential to be the most overpowered of any of the spells, mainly because you don't have to compromise your damage output when using crowd control.

8: Meh. Needs more % fail, like 75-90. Not extendable and with a focused 35/5, you get less than 25% chance of failure for 3 rounds. Which means (by the odds) you won't have any effect. It needs to be reliable in order to be effective. Extendable would be nice too. 3 round duration is a good base.

I sort of agree. I don't think the failure chance should be anywhere near that high, probably no more than 50% tops, but as it is, either the duration could use extending, or the spell failure could be increased some.

[neil420]

Also, lets not get sidetracked here. Am I goin crazy? New dev to add AO jobs and fix bugs and the first thing he does is NERF THE CLASS HIS FACTION DIDN'T HAVE. Come on!

So back to what this post is about .

[Bargeld]

max ab should more than that unless it does not work as advertised, I think you might have forgoten spell focuses. A level 40 mage would get 38 (95% caster level) + 6 (epic spell focus) + 22 (max possible int/cha mod with AQ3, Epic spell focus and a +4 book). That gets you 66 base ab, so you could roll up to 86. It might be a stretch for some mages to hit a 22 int or cha mod, but getting 64 base with a 20 int or cha mod should be quite reasonable.

You are correct here... my current tester/"focused" bigs wiz isn't truly DC/Int based, although it's not just 20 for prereqs.

And you are right Nyeleni, my apologies, i was trying to remember so much still I just blurted out the first TC shifter girl I thought of

[mining]

AO jobs are coming. They're considerably harder than this, and this was something I began even before I officially became a dev.

They're considerably less "I cast bigby 9 on the str based fighter, I win" and considerably more "I have a tool for every situation". Yes, your Conj bigby mages got nerfed. Conj is still a great school, and a large number of bigby mages I've seen have had at least some Evo focuses for the AB on old 9.

Regarding individual concerns:

wow i gotta say that lvl 7 bigby is now the DUMBEST and most useless spell in the game, you gotta be a special kind of moron to want to drag your opponents closer to your mage.....

Well, if its a 1v1, maybe, or maybe they have a relic?

Additionaly testing showed that all shifter shapes (in use by players) have enough STR to overcome Bigby 7.

It should be an even contest for most of the preepic ones, and in the shifters favour for the epic ones. If its not, then maybe I need to add more to the mages check .


In general: Be aware that no bigbies stack, as before. AC loss from bigby 9 will not help bigby 6 hit. Bigby 6 already has obscenely high AB, which is probably why I made sure it worked like that.

Try extending your bigby 6 for a little more knockback effect.

Bigby 8 gets to 33% failure on bigby 8? Thats a hell of a lot for your 1:6 action efficiency.
I'm hesitant to make it extendable yet, but I'm definitely open to good feedback.

Understand: If you scream and yell and carry on, and I don't get any feedback at all, then the best we can do is to say "Well, lots of people don't like bigby spells, but no reasons. Must just be that its changed from the same old same old."

Also, lets not get sidetracked here. Am I goin crazy? New dev to add AO jobs and fix bugs and the first thing he does is NERF THE CLASS HIS FACTION DIDN'T HAVE. Come on!

I think the first thing I did were actually exploit fixes and the damage shields fix.

I think that when you all actually try the bigbys, and play your mages, you'll have a heap more fun with them, because instead of just throwing down the same things over and over you'll actually have a variety of valid options, and a pair (6 and 7) of very much fun bigbies.

Just as an example: In an optimal 40 mage with 22 cast stat and ESF Evo:

Bigs 5 : Never misses, target receives -10 AB, for 10/20 rounds.

Bigs 6 : 66 AB to hit, on hit target receives average 180 bludg damage, on hit target is pushed far away, on 10 or higher d20 roll target is KD 3 seconds

Bigs 7 : Never misses, Caststat+d20+40 VS 40+d20+strmod , if mage wins, the target is pulled towards caster and then slowed for 3 rounds.

Bigs 8 : Never misses, target receives 1/3 spell failure rate.

Bigs 9 : Never misses, target receives -5 AC.

[Bargeld]

Concerns for current implementation:

Spell fail of 1/3 for 3 rounds is still pretty low... that means 4 spells will still not fail (all it takes is one grestore for some builds, which they have a TON of), and you can't use any other bigs on that target (on your 5 spell bigs mage). But we can play it and see.

Tumble roll on bigs 7.

Recheck mining... I used 9 then 6 repeated in my testing and it allowed me to hit targets that were previously outside of my AC range. Log supported this, see below... AB 53 vs ac 75, 9 lowers it to 71 making it hittable. Even cast a 6 afterwards, without the 9 first to show the 75.

[Bargeld]

I just noticed my luck! 2x 20's in a row... but, the second 20 crit onHit missed. 53 + 20 = 73 vs 75. A melee crit would always hit.

(feel free to shadow/split my input to a proper thread for testing responses)

[Bargeld]

Oh and grestore will dismiss 5, 7, 9. Will not dismiss 8, didn't try on 6 (kinda unrealistic).

[BlkMamba]

All good and dandy, but lets see, how long is that pure mage gonna be alive?
yeah, about 3 seconds, thats the issue, the ONLY way to have a 1/2 decent survivable mage is to cross class it
pure mages have no chance whatsoever of surviving
all these stats sound nice sure, but the mage might get 1 shot off, then he's dead
I've been all day thinking to myself
what would i log to defend against a high ac toon?
what could i make?
the answer: absolutely nothing
18 40's and everyone of them now nerfed to a point i couldnt defend against a high AC toon
or raid a faction that has them
thats completely bullshit
and Tep, i honestly am surprised you even signed off on this
but thats your decision
this is suppose to be player vs player, we are suppose to have a chance of killing each other
this nerf was a very bad answer period

Peace out
Mamba...