Solars and everything else

[Alkapwn]

So PM being the most dispelable caster

Correction: PM counts as half-levels towards dispel resistance. Therefore a 30/10 caster split has 35 dispel resistance which never fails against an unfocused greater dispel. Even a 25/5/10 caster has 30 effective dispel resistance, which means you lose 25% of your buffs per unfocused greater dispel. Sure, half-levels are less than full levels, but most of our cleric or druid casters multi-class with things that don't even give you dispel resistance (cot, bard, whatever). I suppose we could make a bard caster! (cue laughter)

48dc BBD's eh there's this little thing called Spell Resistance. Surprisingly enough over 90% of toons have! I wonder why

You also get mord. I have no idea why you're complaining about this when clerics have literally nothing to reduce SR. We have to multi-class bard or rogue in order to even scroll cast mord, and it's not possible to do that on a DC 48 AQ imploder build. The fact that you would complain about SR on a wiz/sorc build is baffling to me.

#1 you mean scroll gdispels, #2 25% chance is quite a bit considering those buffs are holding that pm together for the most part3 Racial SR even with mord is still impentrable to that type of caster, And i'm pretty sure NC gets SR with one of their tokens like 30 or something #4 Umm have you even looked at your saves? #5 An Int focused pm has about 54 ac and no disc and vunerabilties easily exploited. Trust me if it worked in pvp we'd have 20 of them. You make PM summoners to run around and let the summon do its buisness and build defensivly . That's their only offence, Which btw as you all well know gets imploded off the face of the planet by ncs cot/clerics with Epic Saves, Disc and a crap ton of spontaneous healing. Its a direct counter to our PM's.

hmm I suppose Epic Spell Penetration and I'm pretty sure TC has Druids (NB) aswell not to mention The Greater Spell Breach's we get running through Melencia.
How many toons do you have that would be destroyed by a CasterSummonerPM with spells?

I'm not complaining I love playing MA/SL. I just think some people's idea of what these builds are capable of is a little out there.

And the whole Planar turning thing is just an observation. And the solution is obvious. Don't make Outsiders

I am shocked to see people want KD turn over AC/AB/saves penalty one. I would gladly take the evil turning over the good any day. One day someone starts using evil turning properly in pvp there will be whining about it being too powerful. Good thing no one started using it yet.

Oh you will be soon

[Daral0085]

#1 you mean scroll gdispels

I don't understand. Full caster gdispel is 25 + d20 vs. opposing caster level + 11. For a 30 wiz/10 pm that's 35 + 11 = 46. So you are undispellable unless the dispeller has SF/GSF/ESF abjuration.

#2 25% chance is quite a bit considering those buffs are holding that pm together for the most part

Ok, but if you were going to try a 25 cleric in some other faction, you would have a 50% chance of losing your buffs. I have no idea how that qualifies PM as the "most dispellable caster" when you can get the same caster level (25 wiz vs. 25 cleric) and have half the chance of getting dispelled thanks to 10 PM. I don't see any reason why your build is more buff dependent than a cleric.

Racial SR even with mord is still impentrable to that type of caster

I'm not sure precisely what build you're talking about, but if you mean a 30 wiz/10 PM or similar, and you land a mord, then that's 30 + d20 vs. 35 SR. Throw in spell pen (36 + d20) and you will break SR literally every time. Versus NC token you wouldn't even need to mord.

25 wiz/5 bard (or whatever)/ 10 PM with ESP and mord would break SR 75% of the time. You need 35 caster levels (plus ESP) to do equivalently on a cleric, and DC 48 imploder builds have 35 cleric levels typically. Unless you are going to throw out less than 25 caster levels, you are equivalent or better to any cleric imploder build, and you have the temerity to complain about SR? That's remarkable. If you're dumb enough to build with less than 25 caster levels on a caster build, you deserve to get beaten. If you get that many or more, then you are provably stronger than a cleric with regards to beating SR and about equivalent in dispel resistance. I'm not saying it's an overall stronger build, but the areas you complained about are ridiculous.

[mining]

I'm just going to put it out there, but by absolutely pushing everything to the most ridiculous degree on my imploder cleric I was able to get 52? fort fully buffed with resistance, bard song, Lloth rings, non-spotting helmet, non-disc belt. Will obviously through the stratosphere, but reflex sits like 30 . Saves are good, but nothing amazing compared to sorc/bg <<incites rage>>.

Meanwhile, on topic, a good cleric turner will slaughter an evil cleric turner... because you know, that's kind of the way the turning works? Good turners are great against casters + high priority targets that you can get people to explode while they're on the floor, while evil cleric turners are great at figuratively neutering every melee on the other side. Pair a DC caster (i.e. wail) with one, I doubt you'll be disappointing. Well, DCs tend to be a touch on the low side with gear creep, but you won't be TOO disappointing.

[Bargeld]

I just keep thinking about that +10 everything ally PDK (except evil of course) as opposed to a -8 everything that works IF you are good & IF you are outsider.

[mining]

I just keep thinking about that +10 everything ally PDK (except evil of course) as opposed to a -8 everything that works IF you are good & IF you are outsider.

Blame Bril for that. PDK is like half stupid ridiculous mode and half "if it wasn't stupid ridiculous mode I'd never make one".

Also, the -8 works against all outsiders... it's just that the caster needs to be evil aligned.

[Bargeld]

Gotcha. Can a grestore pick us up off the ground as well? Cuz that negates ours completely.

And just curious, but what happens with a LE azer DwD? I'm guessing they are immune to kd?

[mining]

Gotcha. Can a grestore pick us up off the ground as well? Cuz that negates ours completely.

And just curious, but what happens with a LE azer DwD? I'm guessing they are immune to kd?

They are.

[Alkapwn]

*edit* my fault , We were talking about 2 different types. I was talking about PM summoner 10w/30pm
30/10 w/pm 's are alright nothin too crazy though just a little tougher then most and a little weaker in some respects. No spot/disc in pvp just means most likely you'll be eating dirt most of the time and hopefully get a spell or 2 off inbetween

[Bargeld]

[Korr]

Not gonna address everything but :

Alka you said good planar turner only needs 18 cha. INCASE you didnt notice here are the prereq for Planar Turning

Prerequisite: 21st level, wisdom 25+, charisma 25+, turn undead

So a good planar turner still needs that 25 Cha

Hond... in case you didnt know. I built out of SL for a couple of years. I am WELL aware of the capabilities of SL. And BG slides right in with SL just fine.

Most everything else has been addressed, but the PM caster levels calculation is wrong 30/2 = 15 caster levels from PM + 10 from wizard = 25 total caster levels. (I think everyone got this wrong).

Alka use extend spell to get to the dragon from MA (or wherever u said), everyone else does.
25 + 11 = 36 dispel DC (38 if abjuration defensed) means against a non-focused caster its about 50% loss on buffs. But lets also not forget the big summon running around while the other caster (not likely to have great AC either, btw) is trying to dispel you (or it). And as mentioned before mord is probably one of the best spells in the game (along with greater breach!) because of its potential... those clerics dont get it.


ANYWHO though. Solars could use a little up and up compared to Balors!

[Daral0085]

I was talking about PM summoner 10w/30pm

Ok, see I don't even consider that a caster. Any build with less than 20 caster levels is not a real caster.

[VagaStorm]

I was talking about PM summoner 10w/30pm

Ok, see I don't even consider that a caster. Any build with less than 20 caster levels is not a real caster.

it's a lousy caster, but he has 25 caster lvls....

[mining]

For the purposes of dispel only, mind.

[hond]

I'm just going to put it out there, but by absolutely pushing everything to the most ridiculous degree on my imploder cleric I was able to get 52? fort fully buffed with resistance, bard song, Lloth rings, non-spotting helmet, non-disc belt. Will obviously through the stratosphere, but reflex sits like 30 . Saves are good, but nothing amazing compared to sorc/bg <<incites rage>>.

52 fort + spellcraft, mean that even turned and a sorc/wiz DC wailing or imploding is no effect...
NC particulary with some paly/CoT cross class are totaly immune of the turn+DC spells...
Many AO toons run with 56+ fort (my stunner have 57 DC) and i don't see them dying by a wail so easily either...
My pvp experience is, you face a good cleric turner...Pure hellball to start the festivity, 1team mate dead, second round turn, other dead, third round have some variety, in case a non outsider start to bash the cleric, sanctuary, if not turn again...In all of case you start the PvP , with 2/3 team mate less than oponent whitout any posibility than watching...
Even with -8 AB, oponents tanks will KD/ bash the evil version...
And as have mentioned barg, PDK give +10 AB to ally (+ many others OP things) that nulify totaly the negative AB from evil turner...
Here the idea of some players is: evil turn is OP, but your too stupid to use it...The combo evil turner+bard curse+ DC instant killer is very nice on theory...but greater restore will screw that combo very easily...and just running from death effect, or a Mantle scroll will prevent that...at same time 2 tanks+1 good turner are way enought to clean all oponent outsider ...without any counter posibility than watching from the floor...
I'm looking the last weeks how players are building good turners, and how their presence is more and more important...In same time MA/SL guys are so stupids that they don't builds any OP evil turners...
Here a bet...make evil turners floor the oponents and suddenly you will see how many of us start to build one...
Right now i prefer to work on a non turned toon..

[mining]

And as have mentioned barg, PDK give +10 AB to ally (+ many others OP things) that nulify totaly the negative AB from evil turner...
.

Just gonna say, +AB and -AB are considered separately, and they both have a +20 cap (as far as I can tell, may be LIES and SLANDER, but it works that way with ability buffs, so I'm sticking to it).

Lots of toons sit on +15 AB party buffed (7 weapon / 1 haste / 4 song / 3 AVA = +15), so FS is only really another 5 AB, and turn + curse will bring you down another 12 points from that number.