A few things noticed while playing a mage

[Brennan068]

NO! do not disable death magic.

Your bard should still reach over 30 saves. Spellcraft bonus to saves doesn't show up on char sheet because it is only vs spells.

Dwarven guardinan CR 19= 31 fort
My necro focused mage lvl 20= wail DC 32

Ummm, I didn't mention a bard at all. What I'm saying is stop the nerfing.

Mages are supposed to be smart. What are you doing casting a fort save spell at a dwarven fighter type? I don't know what the dwarven guardians character class build is, but I'd expect some dwarven defender in there. You have to expect them to have a heap of con and really good fort saves. Their reflex saves are cr@p I know because my 16th lvl generalist druid pounds them with grease and call lightning. Vampires on the other hand have nasty good reflex saves, so I don't use that strategy with them. Just because you chose to take a necro focus on a character does not mean that your necro spells should be smacking everything around. Try using your necro spells on low fort save type npcs.

If that's your grounds for calling for reducing saves and removing the benifit of spellcraft, then I believe you are out to lunch and I hope that the devs ignore your pleas in this case.

[TheBestDeception]

Wow...he has a DC 32 wail and thinks its the fault of high saves that he can't kill anything?? LOL!

[Spura]

NO! do not disable death magic.

Your bard should still reach over 30 saves. Spellcraft bonus to saves doesn't show up on char sheet because it is only vs spells.

Dwarven guardinan CR 19= 31 fort
My necro focused mage lvl 20= wail DC 32

Ummm, I didn't mention a bard at all. What I'm saying is stop the nerfing.

Mages are supposed to be smart. What are you doing casting a fort save spell at a dwarven fighter type? I don't know what the dwarven guardians character class build is, but I'd expect some dwarven defender in there. You have to expect them to have a heap of con and really good fort saves. Their reflex saves are cr@p I know because my 16th lvl generalist druid pounds them with grease and call lightning. Vampires on the other hand have nasty good reflex saves, so I don't use that strategy with them. Just because you chose to take a necro focus on a character does not mean that your necro spells should be smacking everything around. Try using your necro spells on low fort save type npcs.

If that's your grounds for calling for reducing saves and removing the benifit of spellcraft, then I believe you are out to lunch and I hope that the devs ignore your pleas in this case.

No you missed point. All things have good saves at that CR. Guardians being the most extreme, but still... no I was mostly talking about pvp.

Thank you very much for ignoring 4 or 5 posts and using one comment for your opinion. Shows much about the general atmosphere around here. It's why any discussion doesn't get far.

[Spura]

Wow...he has a DC 32 wail and thinks its the fault of high saves that he can't kill anything?? LOL!

Excuse me Mr. smartypants. What kind of DC does your mage have at lvl 20? You are just being an idle [censored]. Yes this shows the quality of this forum. Max DC for lvl 20 mage is 33. I have 32. And OK someone tell me one save spell to use vs dwarves that is at least half good as IGMS.

[Epistaxis]

my bard RDD fighter has 2 base saves higher. And you forgot about fort you get from spellcraft.

You are right, but at the moment my bard only got 10 in spellcraft, I know I would be able to increase the fort save allot when i reach level 24 and could select the epic fort save feat. That would increase my fort saves to 26 I think against death magic.

Is the major problem not the fact that all wiz are to dependent on death magic? I am sure allot of chars would start to complain if the spell casters could run around throwing death magic spells and killing everyone in no time. A fighter build with high con and fort save feats should be able to survive such spells.

Why not improve some of the element damage spells to give the wizards and sorceres other useable spells to use as well as death magic?

If the death magic spells was increased then the spells should also be available to evil necromancers only to prevent all other spell casters from being able to use these deadly spells.

[Epistaxis]

Your bard should still reach over 30 saves. Spellcraft bonus to saves doesn't show up on char sheet because it is only vs spells.

Dwarven guardinan CR 19= 31 fort
My necro focused mage lvl 20= wail DC 32

EDIT: Ok just to keep other mages informed, so that they don't make same mistakes I did. They nerfed Prismatic spray(no idea why).

But if you increase the DC of the spell you make it mandatory to have maxed spellcraft and all the fort save feats in Neversummer. As it is now you still have a chance of survival even though it is small without 40 in spellcraft and all the fort save feats.

All the death spells by NPC's would also get their DC raised and you do after all have to kill the critters of NS to get xp. And as most guards in any of the factions use death magic you would need some uberbuild or cleric with death ward to fight a few of the guards. Soon all will be running around as clerics or with a single level of cleric + bonus spell amulets to be able to cast death ward.

[Epistaxis]

We might as well give back devasting critical to the fighters. It was taken away from the fighter classes without given some compensation in return. Not many play pure fighters in NS anymore.

If the wiz should be able to instant kill all then let the fighters be able to do the same

[Epistaxis]

Your bard should still reach over 30 saves. Spellcraft bonus to saves doesn't show up on char sheet because it is only vs spells.

Nevermind my curses against the death magic spells.

I just got a new level and a chance to try out the silence spell and it works wonders, thanks allot for the advice on this one Spura

[Spura]

Why not improve some of the element damage spells to give the wizards and sorceres other useable spells to use as well as death magic?

Finally someone understands what this is all about. Spells with saves have to be better than 20d6(IGMS) to be useful. Chain Lightning, Meteor swarm, Delayed blast fireball, all of them are 20d6 yet they all have save and thus are inferior to IGMS. IGMS, a lvl 6 spell and Meteor swarm is a lvl 9 spell. Now which one should be better?

Why was I mentioning death spells. Well if you want mages to stop spamming bigby, you need to have disablers with saves work. Now things like Cloud of bewilderment or Tentacles won't work if wail doesn't. Since they are all fort save and wail is the highest. The wail is just a representative of save spells. Usually it has the highest DC of all spells and if wail doesn't work, you can forget about anything else with a save work. The exception are reflex damage spells. But with all the builds with evasion out there, IGMS > reflex spells and since disablers don't work(they all have lower DC than wail) -> bigby. And here we have why mages do only IGMS + bigby in pvp. I am talking about lvl 40 mages like magic foo and black willow. You just can't touch a lvl 40 cleric or bard or something with anything else, they simply won't fail a save.

An interesting thing I noticed on Bastions of War PvP server is, evasion and improved evasion doesn't work in heavy armor, medium armor and tower shield. That would put a lid on all the chars with one level of monk out there.

[Spooky]

Yeah but also BOW prevents cleric spells from stacking..(bless+aid+prayer+battletide+divine power+divine favor+greater magic weap=own)
and also the durations of spells are reasonable...

[AlienOverlord]

An interesting thing I noticed on Bastions of War PvP server is, evasion and improved evasion doesn't work in heavy armor, medium armor and tower shield. That would put a lid on all the chars with one level of monk out there.

Now that's a good idea, it breaks my latest build (not that it's jst one level monk), but it's a good idea.

[Risen]

Slightly off topic, but the idea of cleric spells not stacking seems unreasonable to me.

To me, that's akin to preventing a fighter from wearing armour & shield simultaneously.

Ridiculous.

[Brennan068]

Why not improve some of the element damage spells to give the wizards and sorceres other useable spells to use as well as death magic?

Finally someone understands what this is all about. Spells with saves have to be better than 20d6(IGMS) to be useful.

Bull. What did arcane casters do before SoU and the, let's face it overpowered, Issac's spells? Spamming Bigby's and IGMS is just the easy tactic, it does not mean that the other spells are not useful. How 'bout taking some spell focus feats in evocation and see what chain lightning will do for you as it is before you cry for more elemental damage? Those upper level arcane damage spells do plenty of damage when compared to the divine casters' damage spells. You can make your caster focussed however you want, you may not be the stereo-type but you can be useful.

I think that the Issac's spells should be made higher level than they are just to force those sorcs to learn to play with the other spells, then we'd get some strategy going out of the arcane spell casters

[Brennan068]

An interesting thing I noticed on Bastions of War PvP server is, evasion and improved evasion doesn't work in heavy armor, medium armor and tower shield. That would put a lid on all the chars with one level of monk out there.

Now that's a good idea, it breaks my latest build (not that it's jst one level monk), but it's a good idea.

I agree with this and think that it should be implimented if possible; but how 'bout we give 'em a chance. The way I see it there's two ways to pull it off, disable the feat when wearing anything heavier than light armour and small (?) shield or (and this is my preferred solution to the idea) force a real dodge check before the evasion kicks in. Evasion (and the improved version) is all about dodging, now a character who really devotes the time and skill points into jacking his dodge skill may be able to pull it off in full plate (heh) but he should have to actually dodge (with full penalties) first. Dodge vs spell DC ? If successful, evasion kicks in.

[Sara Tonin]

I seem to remember this conversation 2 years ago on another server with clerics and harm. lets face it, nwn is not remotely balanced. it will never be remotely balanced. why not put together a char you enjoy playing instead of running through 20 odd variations in some trainer module to see which has the +1 DC on "pants of doom" spell.

Seriously, your coming across as being far to in to this and far too upset about not being the uberest. Personally, if I was playing a char that pissed me off as much as yours seems too i'd either make a new char or play a different game.