random item drop question.
random item drop question.
I was wondering, is the item dropped from your character when killed in enemy territory an item you have equipped or anything at all that you are carrying. This is kinda vague to me.
Pestilence of Clan Freakery, Phil Latio of Clan Freakery, The One of Clan Freakery. Major Pain, Cpl. Punishment.
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AndrewCarr
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This will hurt, but whats stopping us from un-equiping items before we die?
I for one will be doing this, if faced with A$$hole gang-bangers who are clearly all much higher in level then me.
We all know that once someone targets you, they won't stop hunting you until you are dead. No place will be safe, not your own city nor Avendell.
Unless ofcourse, the city guards are increased in power......
I for one will be doing this, if faced with A$$hole gang-bangers who are clearly all much higher in level then me.
We all know that once someone targets you, they won't stop hunting you until you are dead. No place will be safe, not your own city nor Avendell.
Unless ofcourse, the city guards are increased in power......
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Quiett
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Since we're on a 2 server format now, it'll be hard for the new players to know what areas belong to who.
Another thing to think about. It's going to give people from LA and TC a bit of an advantage since those 2 factions don't have to travel into enemy territory to get to avendell.
Another thing to think about. It's going to give people from LA and TC a bit of an advantage since those 2 factions don't have to travel into enemy territory to get to avendell.
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deathdearler1
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i say bring it on, i want the risk of losing something i need and actually have to go retrieve again. for too long ppl have killed mercilessly without worrying of anything bad happening. now all those high lvl char's will have to think twice b4 they stand off against a pack of lowbies. since they don't have to worry about losing xp(unless they are bound to another server) they have to worry about losing their equipment.
when death comes for you and you are not afraid, if he asks why tell him you met me
All valid points. Here's the thoughts behind it:
- We need to create an element of risk when fighting PvP. Currently, there's virtually no risk.
- We want to target the aggressors, not the victims, of PvP.
- We figure the best way to create risk is to go for the heart, what all the players cherish: their items.
- On the other hand, we cannot allow "item mining" by malicious players.
- The currently equipped items are most likely the things the player cherishes most, and they are also helping them in combat.
- We decide to restrict the dropping of items to ONLY those equipped on death. This way:
a) Nobody can stack the system by accumulating massive amounts of worthless items in their inventory, thereby reducing the risk that a valuable item will be dropped.
b) Nobody can mine another player's items since you can't rez hostile players
c) If by some chance you are targetted unfairly or repeatedly, simply unequipping valuable items or respawning will prevent further lossage.
d) On the other hand, if YOU are the aggressor, you are one of the people this rule is supposed to be targetting, and you're unlikely to want to unequip your items, since you're looking to win the kill yourself.
Hopefully, it all "balances out" :)
- We need to create an element of risk when fighting PvP. Currently, there's virtually no risk.
- We want to target the aggressors, not the victims, of PvP.
- We figure the best way to create risk is to go for the heart, what all the players cherish: their items.
- On the other hand, we cannot allow "item mining" by malicious players.
- The currently equipped items are most likely the things the player cherishes most, and they are also helping them in combat.
- We decide to restrict the dropping of items to ONLY those equipped on death. This way:
a) Nobody can stack the system by accumulating massive amounts of worthless items in their inventory, thereby reducing the risk that a valuable item will be dropped.
b) Nobody can mine another player's items since you can't rez hostile players
c) If by some chance you are targetted unfairly or repeatedly, simply unequipping valuable items or respawning will prevent further lossage.
d) On the other hand, if YOU are the aggressor, you are one of the people this rule is supposed to be targetting, and you're unlikely to want to unequip your items, since you're looking to win the kill yourself.
Hopefully, it all "balances out" :)
The major concern I have over this is the relative imbalance of the penalty based on class. If a fighter loses weapon, armour or shield he is unable to function anywhere near as effectively until it is replaced. The same can not be said for casters, especially wizards and sorcerors.
<sarcasm size="5">Mind you, mundane melee classes are already rediculously overpowered when compared to wizards and sorcerors. This should help even things up a bit.</sarcasm>
On a more serious note, I am not sure if a territory wide effect is so great. Its very hard to tell where one territory ends and another begins. I am not even sure if there are any places that are neutral territory.
Perhaps the loss should only kick in when invaders are killed in city areas. Either that or edit the areas and prefix the area names with the faction they belong to. eg Last Alliance : Silver Road, Evenshire or Northern Coalition : Highlands. That way there is no excuse for not knowing if you are trespassing or not.
Another option would be to give an attribute penalty of some kind to the invader (instead of item loss) for a certain duration after being evicted from enemy lands. If you suffered -5 to str, dex, con, int, wis and cha and -10 to all skills for 20 minutes after being killed in enemy lands you would probably think twice about just running back there and continuing where you left off. Especially if the penalty was cumulative and each death reset the 20 minute timer.
This type of penalty does play "class favourites" when it comes to how detrimental it is. It also helps characters defending a city when the attackers are bound to a shard nearby. Although they can still return within a few minutes you know they will be a lot weaker when they do. If you still want a more permanent penalty, have the invading character suffer a hefty gold loss. Possibly a lot more than a standard death penalty. Instead of the gold vanishing it could drop on the ground where they were slain, a small reward for the defender.
<sarcasm size="5">Mind you, mundane melee classes are already rediculously overpowered when compared to wizards and sorcerors. This should help even things up a bit.</sarcasm>
On a more serious note, I am not sure if a territory wide effect is so great. Its very hard to tell where one territory ends and another begins. I am not even sure if there are any places that are neutral territory.
Perhaps the loss should only kick in when invaders are killed in city areas. Either that or edit the areas and prefix the area names with the faction they belong to. eg Last Alliance : Silver Road, Evenshire or Northern Coalition : Highlands. That way there is no excuse for not knowing if you are trespassing or not.
Another option would be to give an attribute penalty of some kind to the invader (instead of item loss) for a certain duration after being evicted from enemy lands. If you suffered -5 to str, dex, con, int, wis and cha and -10 to all skills for 20 minutes after being killed in enemy lands you would probably think twice about just running back there and continuing where you left off. Especially if the penalty was cumulative and each death reset the 20 minute timer.
This type of penalty does play "class favourites" when it comes to how detrimental it is. It also helps characters defending a city when the attackers are bound to a shard nearby. Although they can still return within a few minutes you know they will be a lot weaker when they do. If you still want a more permanent penalty, have the invading character suffer a hefty gold loss. Possibly a lot more than a standard death penalty. Instead of the gold vanishing it could drop on the ground where they were slain, a small reward for the defender.
I have to agree with Denort on this one Joran.
At present I am finding the biggest pvp killers are wizards/sorcerors. Usually they are invisible/hidden and stoneskinned and such and then cast death spells like Wail, Weird, Finger of Death etc etc.
What penalty are they going to incur if a melee character manages to thump them .. ooh a robe (hell +3 AC) ... a fighter on the other hand may find it difficult to run around with backup suits of Full Plate and shields and wpns to cover for random pvp from an encumberance point of view.
I dont pvp and I really don't want to burden my character with multiple redundant items as a contigency plan ...
This is counterproductive unless you make some sort of restriction on what can be taken other than equipped items - item value etc.
Perhaps a total loss of money back to 0. This will have an impact forcing some players to sell items to finance the purchase of more ptns/heal kits.
Losing an item that is integral to playing your character as a VICTIM is not a reward and only rewards the usually stronger PVPer.
All I see happening is players mining an area for multiple items of the same type and creating mules to carry these items should they be killed ... thus not creating any RISK but only INCONVENIENCE.
cheers,
kgb
At present I am finding the biggest pvp killers are wizards/sorcerors. Usually they are invisible/hidden and stoneskinned and such and then cast death spells like Wail, Weird, Finger of Death etc etc.
What penalty are they going to incur if a melee character manages to thump them .. ooh a robe (hell +3 AC) ... a fighter on the other hand may find it difficult to run around with backup suits of Full Plate and shields and wpns to cover for random pvp from an encumberance point of view.
I dont pvp and I really don't want to burden my character with multiple redundant items as a contigency plan ...
This is counterproductive unless you make some sort of restriction on what can be taken other than equipped items - item value etc.
Perhaps a total loss of money back to 0. This will have an impact forcing some players to sell items to finance the purchase of more ptns/heal kits.
Losing an item that is integral to playing your character as a VICTIM is not a reward and only rewards the usually stronger PVPer.
All I see happening is players mining an area for multiple items of the same type and creating mules to carry these items should they be killed ... thus not creating any RISK but only INCONVENIENCE.
cheers,
kgb
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Flailer
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Hmmm...while I like the idea of some kind of item penalty if you're killed while PvPing (although I might like the idea Denort suggested about a temp stat penalty), I don't think that this would discourage stronger players from killing weaker players. It may prevent more evenly matched chars from engaging in wanton PvP, however. How about these ideas for refining it:
- The drop penalty is only enforced inside the cities and within say a 1 or 2 map radius outside the city.
- If the spread of levels between the two chars is great enough, then no drop penalty is incurred. For example, if someone rated impossible kills an effortless player, then either no equipped item drops or something less problematic such as gold or a non-equipped item drops. However, once the level spread becomes more even, then the equipped item dropping kicks in.
- Relying on the ability of a someone who doesn't wish to engage to PvP to un-equip all their items before they die probably isn't reasonable. I would wager 100-1 that most epic chars could kill most chars rated as effortless before they could get half their items unequipped. Especially when a great many feats involve someone being incapacitated (knockdown, paralyzed, Bigbies, flesh-to-stone, stunned, etc)
- While some aspects of PvP are irritating, it is fun to pit your build against someone else's. If we did do a item-drop penalty, it would be great to have an arena back in the game, perhaps in Avendell (in a un-authorized Fight Club
), where the item-drop penalty wasn't enforced and where the rezzing of enemy PCs could occur.
- I actually don't think this rule is unbalanced in favor of casting classes *that* much. While a fighter class relies on his weapons and the caster his finger-wiggling, I know I'd be irritated to lose my helm/amulet/staff/robe on my caster and would have to go get the item again just the same as a fighter would his weapon.
But, at the end of the day, hurrah for progress and renewed discussion!
Shade
- The drop penalty is only enforced inside the cities and within say a 1 or 2 map radius outside the city.
- If the spread of levels between the two chars is great enough, then no drop penalty is incurred. For example, if someone rated impossible kills an effortless player, then either no equipped item drops or something less problematic such as gold or a non-equipped item drops. However, once the level spread becomes more even, then the equipped item dropping kicks in.
- Relying on the ability of a someone who doesn't wish to engage to PvP to un-equip all their items before they die probably isn't reasonable. I would wager 100-1 that most epic chars could kill most chars rated as effortless before they could get half their items unequipped. Especially when a great many feats involve someone being incapacitated (knockdown, paralyzed, Bigbies, flesh-to-stone, stunned, etc)
- While some aspects of PvP are irritating, it is fun to pit your build against someone else's. If we did do a item-drop penalty, it would be great to have an arena back in the game, perhaps in Avendell (in a un-authorized Fight Club
), where the item-drop penalty wasn't enforced and where the rezzing of enemy PCs could occur.- I actually don't think this rule is unbalanced in favor of casting classes *that* much. While a fighter class relies on his weapons and the caster his finger-wiggling, I know I'd be irritated to lose my helm/amulet/staff/robe on my caster and would have to go get the item again just the same as a fighter would his weapon.
But, at the end of the day, hurrah for progress and renewed discussion!
Shade
Haveing your stats reduced for llike 20 mins won't mean a lot, you could just go to a safe area and just stay there for 20 mins. Imho, loosing eq is the only way to go, its the only thing that wil actually help.
For balancing melee vs casters, it could be made that meele chars lost "physical" eq (like weapons, armours etc), and spell casters lost spells(either until they levelld again and could choose it again, or for a long periiode of time, equivialent of the time it would take a meel char to reclaim his eq)
For balancing melee vs casters, it could be made that meele chars lost "physical" eq (like weapons, armours etc), and spell casters lost spells(either until they levelld again and could choose it again, or for a long periiode of time, equivialent of the time it would take a meel char to reclaim his eq)
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Brennan068
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I too am with Denort on this one Joran, the plan as it stands seems to severly penalize the classes who rely on gear for survivability and doesn't really do much to the mages (who really are currently the PvP aggressors.)
The time for this idea is after the epic areas are online I think. You are trying to penalize the aggressors, but you have not provided alternatives for those who would choose not to be aggressors, yet. As it is currently, city raiding (or *yawn* rat hunting) is the only place for lvl 17+ characters to get xp. The factional PvP that has been encouraged is finally happening and the players are defending their cities, but a lvl 17 will still usually fall to three lvl 15's, giving the defenders quite an upper hand. Also note the strategy many have adopted of hiding until you are surrounded by city mobs and then attacking (a good strategy, if somewhat cowardly ). What you are proposing with this will lead to a different kind of griefing I believe. A lowbie getting a lucky shot on someone raiding will suddenly get gear that he should not have.
I think that the earlier discussions about pvp penalties approach this in a better, more "balanced" manner. xp penalty assessed for those who attack and kill others that are significantly lower level than they are (with no penalty assessed if the lowbie initiates combat.) This would penalize the aggressors (and griefers). If the xp penalty option is off the table, then I'd have to agree with the suggestion of stat penalty for 20minutes (real time online) instead of gear loss.
If you are going to introduce item loss, I'd prefer to see it based on who initiated the combat, not on what map you happen to be standing in.
my .02$ Hope it is worth something
The time for this idea is after the epic areas are online I think. You are trying to penalize the aggressors, but you have not provided alternatives for those who would choose not to be aggressors, yet. As it is currently, city raiding (or *yawn* rat hunting) is the only place for lvl 17+ characters to get xp. The factional PvP that has been encouraged is finally happening and the players are defending their cities, but a lvl 17 will still usually fall to three lvl 15's, giving the defenders quite an upper hand. Also note the strategy many have adopted of hiding until you are surrounded by city mobs and then attacking (a good strategy, if somewhat cowardly
). What you are proposing with this will lead to a different kind of griefing I believe. A lowbie getting a lucky shot on someone raiding will suddenly get gear that he should not have.I think that the earlier discussions about pvp penalties approach this in a better, more "balanced" manner. xp penalty assessed for those who attack and kill others that are significantly lower level than they are (with no penalty assessed if the lowbie initiates combat.) This would penalize the aggressors (and griefers). If the xp penalty option is off the table, then I'd have to agree with the suggestion of stat penalty for 20minutes (real time online) instead of gear loss.
If you are going to introduce item loss, I'd prefer to see it based on who initiated the combat, not on what map you happen to be standing in.
my .02$ Hope it is worth something
Thanks Joran for your reply. I understand the idea behind the idea, but still have yet more questions. (Pain in the arse aint I 
) I think enemy faction territory needs to be defined for starters. I understand this will probably be cleared up in the future and this is the reason for beta, this is not a gripe . Would that be considered the enemy faction city itself or several maps in the general area of a city? Is there some way to tell wich is enemy faction territory besides the obvious being the capitol city? Example: Falme is an LA faction territory, but is crossroads, silver road to avendell, etc, concidered to be LA territory as well? Dwarven mines & black hills areas come to mind also. I can see how complicated one little adjustment can be so Im hoping all parties involved will have some patience in this matter. And finally, is there any plans on rules regarding pvp when high lvls attack low lvls. What I mean is, will there be a lvl restriction on who you can attack? Example: a character can not attack another player character of plus or minus 5 lvls of attackers current lvl? But then I guess that would be the same concept of losing a random equipped item. Your thoughts on this Joran would be appreciated when you have time. Thanks.
) I think enemy faction territory needs to be defined for starters. I understand this will probably be cleared up in the future and this is the reason for beta, this is not a gripe . Would that be considered the enemy faction city itself or several maps in the general area of a city? Is there some way to tell wich is enemy faction territory besides the obvious being the capitol city? Example: Falme is an LA faction territory, but is crossroads, silver road to avendell, etc, concidered to be LA territory as well? Dwarven mines & black hills areas come to mind also. I can see how complicated one little adjustment can be so Im hoping all parties involved will have some patience in this matter. And finally, is there any plans on rules regarding pvp when high lvls attack low lvls. What I mean is, will there be a lvl restriction on who you can attack? Example: a character can not attack another player character of plus or minus 5 lvls of attackers current lvl? But then I guess that would be the same concept of losing a random equipped item. Your thoughts on this Joran would be appreciated when you have time. Thanks.Pestilence of Clan Freakery, Phil Latio of Clan Freakery, The One of Clan Freakery. Major Pain, Cpl. Punishment.