ECL 3 races

[Elagneros]

131 hide (in theory) you would need a 56 buffed dex in theory, svirf with 20 starting dex +10dex feats +10grdex feats and a +4 book + hide feats. thats a pretty tight build Not to mention on your method of maxing hide

IOW, you're spending a lot of feats on pumping up Dex and on skill focus for hide. You say that's a tight build, which of course makes it trickier for RK since there's no humans for that one extra feat. It might be good at hiding, but maybe not at anything else. Plus it's a smurf so you got that lovely ECL 3 to work with.

I probably wouldn't go out of my way to build this one. The overspecialization feels crippling to me, because you'd probably need to frequently party to level it efficiently, and I often prefer to work alone.

In the ages factions gained and lost stuff, lets do a brief summary if it:
tc got monks it didn't have in the beginning, ma got travel domain, nc got trickery domain, nc gained a 2nd prc.
Ancient Ones faction lost paladin... I cant remember exactly when. Probably at that time there were a lot of noobs ( i remember a sl guy of a certain guild crying "how did you blind me?!?!" probably people had never seen word of faith before when i had 4 removed blindness I never used...), and they got really scared of paladin / rdd with the (omg!) divine shield.
Paladin fits perfectly with rdd, and it doesn't make an OP class, saves and feats are lower than a cot, ac isn't higher and there are no $%$# immunities like shifter or palemaster.

I have to wonder just why TC was given monk. I'm pretty sure it didn't have monk in the past because of the AC bonus when mixed with druid builds to preserve balance.

That second PrC was added to NC because it was added in 1.69. It's the first new PrC to be added outside haks since HotU, and NS4 had already taken all the PrCs into account.

The paladins were removed around 5 years ago because of both balance and flavor. First people were making paladin/rdd builds that were pretty damn powerful in pvp, and they just dipped a single level of sorcerer to get it. The 1 level dipping for several classes (like monk AC bonuses, pally save bonuses, SD HiPS, melee RDDs) was why the 5 level minimum was added, and I think it was around the same time. Even if it's weaker than CoT, at the time NC wasn't played much, so we didn't see a lot of CoTs around. The other reason was flavor; AO isn't an outright evil faction, but it was also seen as a faction that was questionable for a paladin to serve because of the rampant slavery.

Nothing was touched in ao for years but when LA players had to move to AO look what happened:
- removed wizards (la players had a lot of wizard type builds)
- removed earth genasi clerics (another popular build of la players)
- removed dwarfs (azer is nice isn't it?) r
- removed gnomes (those smurfs are the best spotters aren't they?)
- REMOVED SD!!! (you really hate those people huh?).

Well dwarves and gnomes makes sense within the world itself; AO is about enslaving everyone else, but RK is their ally so they don't enslave their races. Have no idea why the other stuff was removed, particularly the wizards, since good aligned wizards can't go anywhere now unless they're dwarves or gnomes.

I started this thread with a simple idea that RK could use another ecl 3 race. I do not play there, for I prefer not to play dwarves or gnomes.

[/quote]

I fail to see why it's necessary, though. Any ECL 3 race added to RK would be theoretically open to the other factions except AO. And why would you be interested in seeing another ECL character added to a faction you prefer not to play? Many of the RK/AO players I've talked to since I've returned to NS4 seem to feel the rest of the server is against them, and getting for something like this would probably be viewed by many of them as another attack on them. Assuming these players are still around, because most of the time when I log on anymore, the rest of player list says "Dislike".

If anything needs to be added to RK, it needs to be something that makes the faction appealing to potential players. The whole lack of class restrictions isn't drawing people to the faction. The only 1 ECL 3 race isn't doing it either. It's like I said, a lot of players don't want to play the RK races. Nor does it help when the player base has declined quite a bit, there are fewer new players than there were in the past, most players seem to be well-established. So perhaps that should be addressed, the whole matter of making the server more appealing to players rather than apparently just nerfing whatever happens to be unpopular with the majority of pvpers atm instead.

If anything, this thread should be everyone else complaining that they don't have as much as RK and AO.

Because the real problem is that there is almost no one playing RK these days besides me and a few people in RR (and from what I understand, they're Australian and play during completely different hours from everyone else). Same with AO, which is strange because that was a very popular faction in the past, though it really didn't appeal to me. Teamwork is pretty important around here, and things can be brutal if you solo unprepared. You could ask for a party on shout, but getting a match when there's only 5-10 people isn't guaranteed. Guilds make teaming easier, but guild activity in RK and AO hasn't been pretty heavy lately.

[mining]

Well, you need to remember that, noticeably when I started playing, PWnD in particular were very much into the killing lowbies, which isn't usually a great recruitment stratagem.

[Daral0085]

I can say in all seriousness that I would have been building for AO/RK long, long ago if it weren't for the difficulty in transferring gear as a single-box player. Since all my buddies are in TC/NC, I would not be able to ask them for starter gear/gold, which makes early levels tough, and then I would need to have their help for transferring gear at levels 16, 20, 25, 30, etc... honestly, it is freaking annoying enough already to xfer gear to toons even within the same faction with access to a guild hall. Doing it across factions is just more work than I care to do.

I would be perfectly happy to make an imba RDD or RK SD if other people helped me gear up. Of course, I've 90% retired already so I guess it doesn't matter now, as I'm not even bothering to finish most of my TNC toons either.

(mining: as I recall, they were even killing your AO lowbies in-faction when they found out it was you making them)

[Eldaquen]

When I started looking at ecl 3 races and noticed that RK only had 1 ecl race, I thought there might be an unbalance which could be addressed to help the community as a whole. Yes I mainly play in TC but that does not mean I want to see other factions devoid of a population. I hope by starting a dialog about a preceived unbalance even if one that favors a faction I do not play would benefit the community as a whole. For to long the forums have been focused on getting rival factions builds nerfed, instead of addressing unbalances objectively.

ECL 3 races are a pain to level. I have made many ecl 3 builds in my time in Aetheria. However, I recognize that ECL 3 races have a distinct advantage over non ecl 3 races once they reach 40th level. In my opinion, on average, an ecl 3 race will perform better in pvp than an ecl 0, ecl 1, or ecl 2. RK only has 1 ecl 3 race, which seemed unbalanced as all the other factions have 3 or 4.

If a new dwarven or gnome race was added as ecl 3, alignment restrictions could be used to reduce the number of factions that the new race is allowed in. At presnt AO, TC, NC, and SL only have access to 3 ecl 3 races, whereas MA has access to 4. Keeping a new ECL race out of MA would be more important than out of AO, TC, NC, and SL. Alignment restrictions are used and could be used again to limit where a new ecl 3 dwarven race is played. If a new dwarven race was restricted to Lawful Good only then only RK and NC would have access to it. TC is not allowed LG alignments. MA is not allowed good alignments. SL must be evil aligned. AO is not allowed to have dwarves or gnomes. RK would have 2 and NC would have 4. Since NC is so restricted in available classes, at this time, I do not preceive adding a new dwarven ecl 3 would overpower NC.

Now just because a race is available to a faction does not mean the race will be chosen. Ability adjustments and special abilities could be set up to benefit RK and not be applicable to NC. If the race was set up so it is disadventagous to use in NC allowed classes, then few NC players would choose it. A new dwarven ECL 3 race could be set up for use as a wizard or cleric that uses a domain not available in NC. Perhaps said race could include a +4 dodge bonus, so on par with githerzai.

I am confused by the statedment that by possiblity adding a new race which favors RK would be viewed as an attack.

[Eldaquen]

If LA was re-established would the ex-LA players come back? Perhaps LA should come back but restricted to whatever the indigenous Aetherian race was before the rifts opened (human only perhaps). The new story line was that LA closed its doors to new arrivals from other realms. If the indigenous race was specified and LA reopened to that race only, then the new story line would hold true. Just instead of arriving in Aetheria by rifts, the new builds were born and raised in LA as true Aetherians.

I can only assume that one of the reasons LA was closed to begin with was that the lack of race and class options resulted in LA being overpowered because the community population inhabiting LA was disportionate to the rest of the factions.

[Eldaquen]

Quote: I have to wonder just why TC was given monk. I'm pretty sure it didn't have monk in the past because of the AC bonus when mixed with druid builds to preserve balance.

In the past the Druid and monk classes were available in AO, RK, and LA. Monks were added to TC on 03/31/2006. The ability to multi-class the druid class with other classes (like monk) and still be able to use the feat dragonshape was removed on 12/1/2005!!! 4 months before monk was available in TC. I wonder where the balance preservation issues were if TC could not make a druid/monk builds but AO, LA, and RK could.

For the record as to what was added, gnomes were added to RK on 03/31/2006. (helps RK)

Sampling of other changes documented in change log:

05/21/2006 - Svirfneblin gets 50% concealment at level 10 (helps RK)

06/10/2006 - The Pech (an ancient Earth dwelling race friendly to the dwarves) has constructed two magical tunnels located in the Dwarf Stronghold: Upper area. One tunnel leads to the Black Hills and the other leads to the Ancient Road. They are useable only by those in the RK Faction. (Helps RK)

09/11/2006 - pure fighter bonuses added. (helps all factions including RK)

04/2/2007 pure barbarian bonuses added. (helps all factions with access to barbarian including RK)

10/3/2007 - lorekeeper dwarf subrace added. (helps RK)

10/7/2007 pure paladin bonuses added. (helps RK)

02/12/2008 Azer dwarf subrace added. (helps RK)

02/06/2008 - blackguard prestige class receives boast. (helps RK)

03/10/2008 Monks who polymorph using Wildshape, Greater Wildshape, Humanoid Shape, or Shapechange (level 9 spell) now acquire an AC decrease penalty (deflection) equal to their wisdom modifier. This is to both balance the extreme AC on some monk/shifter builds as well as to make it easier to balance shifters altogether since we no longer have to worry about two types of shifters: monks and non-monks. (helps RK by nerfing TC, but hurts RK by reducing AC on RK druid/monk builds using shapechange spell).

03/15/2008 -Dwarven Defenders now receive 10% immunity to all physical damage per 10 Dwarven Defender levels (30% max). At 30 Dwarven Defender levels, they receive immunity to sneak attacks and knockdown as well. (helps RK)

04/01/2008 Tinker Gnomes added. (helps RK)

04/02/2008 -Increased duration of Azerblood Azer fire ability to 1 hour + 1 hour per 5 levels. (helps RK)

04/04/2008 -Removed worship/knockdown effect from Aspect of the Deity. (Sorry, pure paladins are powerful enough as it is) (hurts and helps RK)
-Aspect of the Deity now removes negative effects and grants immunity to slow, entangle, and movement decrease.

04/11/2008 - Epic Mage Armor: Provides +12 shield ac, lasts until you rest, undispellable. - Epic Warding: Provides damage soak of the same power as a similar level earth genasi and will soak 15 physical damage. Lasts until rest, not dispellable, no damage absorbtion cap. (helps RK) (later changed)

04/29/2008 From now on, a cleric casting the darkfire blessing will imbue their followers will the following enchantments:

The Last Alliance: Fire
The Shadow Legion: Negative
Ragnar's Kin: Sonic (helps RK)
Northern Coalition: Cold
The Circle: Acid
The Mystral Ascendancy: Electrical
The Ancient Ones: Fire

06/2008 - RDD receives dragon shape at level 30 RDD. (helps RK ally)

07/16/2008 -Svirfneblin now have Keen Sense feat. -Ghostwise Halfling hide bonus reduced to character level / 4 (+10 at level 40) (helps RK)

08/10/2008 Druid elemental shape and dragon shape:
- Lowered earth elemental natural ac in both normal and elder version.
- Greater water elemental form lacked weapon finesse, though it may not come up.
- Replaced warhammer for elder earth elemental with light hammer.
- Bumped then better distributed discipline bonus.
- Strength bump to dragon forms, more variation by type. Discipline should be pretty much the same across the board.
Don't know if I mentioned it before, but Dragon Shape is now tiered. Call it dragon below level 35, wyrm above level 35. (mixed results affecting factions with access to druid class and dragonshape feat - RK included)

09/11/2008 major change to shapes implemented. (mixed results)

12/27/2008 -Shadow Legion is now evil only. All non-evil Drow will become evil when they log in. (helps RK paladins)

01/02/2009 Lowered Divine Might damage to +1 divine damage per charisma modifier point for Paladins. Divine Might now works the same for Blackguards, Clerics, and Paladins. Damage cap is now +20 (with a 50+ charisma).
Divine Wrath damage reduction lowered. Divine damage bonus from Divine Wrath is cut in half for non-evil creatures. Saving throw bonus from Divine Wrath has been removed. (helps RK)

06/15/2009 You get the shape token at first level, it has 2 uses per rest and allows a polymorph as:
1-10 RDD, red wyrmling per shifter (fine for low, low leveling).
11-20 RDD red dragon per shapechange spell
21-29 RDD red dragon per previous red dragon version before level 35 for dragon shape feat
30 RDD current red wyrm
(helps RK ally)

02/23/2010-Bumped up pure barbarian's physical damage (bludge/pierce/slash) immunity from raging to 10%
-High level dragon wyrm forms (shifter/druid/RDD) physical damage immunity dropped to 10% (hurt TC, RK and AO dragons, helped RK overall)

05/27/2010 -Polymorph forms now no longer receive twice their boot's dodge AC, now its just a single bonus (like everyone else) (hurt TC and RK's druid class - helped RK overall)

09/08/2010 -Improved Black Devil summon. Removed weapon focus feats and dropped strength a bit, but gave spear a +6 enhancement bonus and +6 vampiric regeneration. Gave +2 to fortitude and Keen Sense... they can't spot/listen worth anything but should prevent summon from walking slow while in Stealth Mode. Gave +10 to AC. (helps RK)

02/27/2011 Bigbies changed to current state.

03/29/2011 Bigbies 9 redone.

[Elagneros]

I can say in all seriousness that I would have been building for AO/RK long, long ago if it weren't for the difficulty in transferring gear as a single-box player.

Well years ago the devs stated that while they weren't going to outlaw muling, they weren't going to assist it either. I was actually surprised when the chests and such in our original guild hall got activated. So I don't really see this changing, though anyone multiboxing is going to have an advantage here.

In the past the Druid and monk classes were available in AO, RK, and LA. Monks were added to TC on 03/31/2006. The ability to multi-class the druid class with other classes (like monk) and still be able to use the feat dragonshape was removed on 12/1/2005!!!

When I was actively playing, so I probably forgot about it. I rebuilt the TC druid I had for LA when guilds went official, so I did have an LA druid at the time. Very few people were playing TC then, so I didn't really pay any attention to what was being added for it. I do remember the multiclassing restriction with druid.

[Dazrield]

If a new dwarven or gnome race was added as ecl 3, alignment restrictions could be used to reduce the number of factions that the new race is allowed in. At presnt AO, TC, NC, and SL only have access to 3 ecl 3 races, whereas MA has access to 4. Keeping a new ECL race out of MA would be more important than out of AO, TC, NC, and SL.

I'm not sure why MA is singled out on not having an additional ECL 3. Sure we get more than anyone else, but lets look a bit closer. What is it that makes an ECL 3? Spell resistance last I checked(along with a few other goodies).

MA has no way of making EVERY OTHER subrace into a spell resistance toon *cough* monks *cough*.

MA is very restricted on domains.. and classes. Making it hard for us to use any of those favored classes very effectively.

And sure, we get access to neutral alignment.. but we drop 2 more class options and one of our ECL3 races right out of the gate by going neutral. It's not as if we have a subrace specifically designed in stats and stuff for a class that many in our faction build heavily on like the asi/pally combo.

[Ryddwillow]

Well, you need to remember that, noticeably when I started playing, PWnD in particular were very much into the killing lowbies, which isn't usually a great recruitment stratagem.

And who wasn't in to pking noobs?

What I really do not understand is that everyone thinks that RK can build the best SD, who cares when so many can see them? RK (Dwarfs) are a strength faction as of AO (RDD). The new mage spells are geared towards dexer ac in which str toons suffer. (I do have a mage trans versed in these focuses). The balance comes when Dwarfs are united in RK since you have to be a Dwarf to belong in RK. There is no JOBS in AO so AO suffers, only Dwarfs and Gnomes in RK, RK suffers. Take some classes away from RK like paladin and ranger or druid and give RK some ecl3 classes. AO, give some jobs and quit stalling and give them back mages and then maybe things will congeal back to where every faction has some powers. It kind of stinks when out of 3 sides only 2 sides participate and the 1 side is nothing. I think it is fun when all sides compete.


P.S. Has any one built a new mage recently?

[Dazrield]

And who wasn't in to pking noobs?

From what I remember.. there were alot of people not into pk'ing me as a noob. Mostly who I remember being hunted the most by was.. {RR}, PWnD, and Syn. I was pk'd by others as well.. but their pk'ing generally came with advice, help, or other things that made me consider their factions far more. First +4 weapon I ever got went to someone in Syn on a disarm, they offered me a sprite sword of the dragonslayer to make up for it.

Tbh.. I can't remember who gave me that blade of unknown evil.. but I remember which guilds tormented the lowbies the most And it's the main reason I've never built out of AO or RK other than just to check the place out a bit. I often avoided parties with all 3 too as it seemed to me their group looter would never have their loot notification turned on.

I do remember that TSS, IO, DD and some others were very nice about building tips even if you were from a rival faction, and many times went out of their way to help their enemies at times. I've found some in {RR} that are far more reputable these days than the ones I remember(but have seen a few of the old blood around too).

Bottom line is.. some people play to have good competition.. others play to make themselves feel better by making someone else have a crappy time. Last I checked people usually flock to positive minded people rather than the ones rooted in negativity. Mining's point is valid to me(someone who was brand new back then) and I saw things from a lot different view than you did willow. Half the time you were yelling over shout with someone while I was being pk'd out of this hunting ground or that.. we were up to much different things back then.

[Eldaquen]

I disagree, the spell resistence is the frosting on the cake not the main feature of an ECL3 subrace. Githzeria's +4 dodge that stacks is much more valuable than 45 SR (total SR received at lvl 40). The ability stat bonues that each ECL 3 subrace gives is more valuable than 45 SR. Drows' darkness token, not as valuable as Githzeria's token, but extremely handy especially when your opponent (PC or NPC) does not have UV. Githyanki's token that will stun most low will save builds (fighters) or if con based almost every rival.

Point is RK has 1 ECL3 race. MA has 4. The example I gave showed that it was possible to limit a possible new subrace to just 2 factions (RK and NC). The reason I gave the example was because someone indicated that by adding any new dwarven subrace would cause that new race to be added to all factions, which is not the case at all.

As far as giving any other race SR, frankly only builds that are mostly or pure monks have SR that is worth having. Monk SR is based on monk class lvl starting at monk level 12 (monk class level plus 10). 45 SR would equal 35 levels of monk. So any other race with same SR as an ECL3 subrace would need 35 lvls of monk (or spent epic feats on monk SR feats). Any less and a well built multi-classed caster will overcome the SR. Nice to have the SR but any caster worth their salt won't have issues overcoming a 45 SR. Mord's reduces SR, as does Natures Balance. 45 SR that was reduced by bigbies isn't going to be that helpful.

I have never chosen to build an ECL 3 subrace because of the SR that the races tend to give. I have chosen them because the ability stats made the build possible, or the dodge bonus is just to good to pass up.

[Eldaquen]

By going neutral you also avoid Smite Evil, which is popular reason why to choose neutral to begin with.

[Dazrield]

I disagree, the spell resistence is the frosting on the cake not the main feature of an ECL3 subrace.

And yet there's no ECL 3 w/o spell resistance nor any ECL below 2 with it. While it may not be the only perk.. I'd have to say it's a defining factor.

As far as giving any other race SR, frankly only builds that are mostly or pure monks have SR that is worth having. Monk SR is based on monk class lvl starting at monk level 12 (monk class level plus 10). 45 SR would equal 35 levels of monk. So any other race with same SR as an ECL3 subrace would need 35 lvls of monk (or spent epic feats on monk SR feats).

I'd be willing to be theres some ghostwise halflings, hogres, water gen, or even earth gen monk combos perhaps that are liking the fact that they got a pretty cool subrace and pulled off SR too. There is the point that monks move pretty quick.. sure, a mage is capable of dropping that SR.. but he'd better be darn quick about what he does next too cuz I bet said monk in question isn't just standing around.

Same for the SR races.. sure, it's something that's beatable, everything does have a counter.. but you're making someone spend the action to try and counter it.

By going neutral you also avoid Smite Evil, which is popular reason why to choose neutral to begin with.

It's not that big of a perk.. well.. it is for some factions, less for MA. After all, we give up our prestige class option by taking that route.

[mining]

Eh, racial SR defines ECL3, but thats just because you're simulating the best part of a level 35 druid/cleric's spell resistance. That Gith then has another +4 AC, that Svirf has conceal and Keen, that Drow has amazing +x stats and darkness, that Githyanki has that killer token and +2 for all physicals is why they're where they are. ECL3 is a lot more levelling than ECL 2 - and the same between 2 and 1.
Ghostwise is the best ECL 1 race (after Hogre, of course), by miles (in what it offers), and you can say that Wild Elf is by far the strongest ECL 0.

Come ECL 2, it gets much more confusing - the awesome bonuses given by all the planar races and Duergar and Azer really mix it up. ECL 2 is probably the most consistently strong ECL.

ECL 3 you have really defining archetypes - Githyanki has an amazing crowd control token, while Gith and Svirf have very selfish control abilities on self. Drow has an amazing early to mid PVM ability, which is situationally amazing PVP. Gith is really potent on any tank, but thats not about the SR - its about the ridiculously good +4 AC. Svirf is equally as good in most situations where you can't self buff II - 50% conceal is worth at the very least 4 AC, and it also has keen senses which is awesome. Githy is pretty cool on things like barbs, WMs, fighters and RDDs, giving them some control over enemies while also being melees. Drow is probably the most lacking, but it has really synergetic bonuses - +2 dex/cha/int with -2 con as a penalty is amazing for most dex based toons that want cha (bards, for example) or for divine builds in general (most bonuses and a malus to a stat you can afford to lose out on)

[Bargeld]

45 racial SR is very, very helpful as a fighter barb sd or rogue type. Often times these builds will have an abnormally low saves for at least 1 of the 3. In PvM, this means that, when running through areas like the nexus's and other mid-high lvl wild areas, you could get stunned by a lvl 22 SoV or a hammer of the gods. 45 SR prevents that. In PvP, the same is true when raiding and running through enemy faction cities and territories. It also protects you from mixed casters with low-mid caster lvls from getting you. You would see a lot more lvl 25 10 5 mixes of casters cuz the overall caster level wont mean much when no one has any basic SR.

Personally, I don't play non-ECL races, unless there is something specific I need; usually stats or a racial token of some sort.

One of the dilemnas that plagues this game (not just this server) is that building and min/maxing is very in-depth and requires skill and practice. The staff tries to balance out factions and races so that the BEST things available to each are all comparable and tries to keep certain abilities from giving anyone an obvious advantage. But you also end up with the ability to make a really crappy toon if you aren't careful.

RK just needs a pure cleric to buff their team with 52 SR and then you all have ECL 3's. Go drink some ale.