A few things noticed while playing a mage

[Flailer]

Also, while party play is not as common as was originally hoped, the best defense/offense against some of the most common abuses of any class is to have a well rounded party. As a fighter, you get Bigbies cast on you? Have your partied wiz cast some kind of dispell on you. Or, better yet, have him be running a counterspell defense in battle to begin with. Or, send in your shadowdancer to disable the wiz before the battle even starts. I would agree the spells and DCs still need more balancing, but I'm not sure we'll ever be able to achive one-on-one parity between characters. If the proper incentive can be placed on party-play, then I think we might be able to hope for party-vs-party parity.
But, seeing that this is a beta, I'm still hopeful that a bit more balance can be brought to things.

Shade

[Brennan068]

Your bard should still reach over 30 saves. Spellcraft bonus to saves doesn't show up on char sheet because it is only vs spells.

Dwarven guardinan CR 19= 31 fort
My necro focused mage lvl 20= wail DC 32

Ummm, I didn't mention a bard at all. What I'm saying is stop the nerfing.

No you missed point. All things have good saves at that CR. Guardians being the most extreme, but still... no I was mostly talking about pvp.

Thank you very much for ignoring 4 or 5 posts and using one comment for your opinion. Shows much about the general atmosphere around here. It's why any discussion doesn't get far.

It is part of how discussion works on web forums. I did not ignore the 4 or 5 posts, I responded to the post that you made in response to mine. If you don't feel that you want your words brought into the discussion, then don't type them. The statement regarding fort save spells on dwarven fighters shows why the cry for lower saves for all, in my opinion, aught not to be implimented.

My statement still stands, I would like the devs to stop nerfing spells untill we can really see what the balance is. I would also like for the devs to stop nerfing the skills including, as discussed further up in this thread, spellcraft. I've stated my opionion of the other skills that have been messed with in their threads.

Just so you know where I'm coming from and for what it is worth, my characters are generally spell slingers to one extent or another (although I do play fighter types sometimes for mindless point and click fun.)

[Spura]

Why not improve some of the element damage spells to give the wizards and sorceres other useable spells to use as well as death magic?

Finally someone understands what this is all about. Spells with saves have to be better than 20d6(IGMS) to be useful.

Bull. What did arcane casters do before SoU and the, let's face it overpowered, Issac's spells? Spamming Bigby's and IGMS is just the easy tactic, it does not mean that the other spells are not useful. How 'bout taking some spell focus feats in evocation and see what chain lightning will do for you as it is before you cry for more elemental damage? Those upper level arcane damage spells do plenty of damage when compared to the divine casters' damage spells. You can make your caster focussed however you want, you may not be the stereo-type but you can be useful.

I think that the Issac's spells should be made higher level than they are just to force those sorcs to learn to play with the other spells, then we'd get some strategy going out of the arcane spell casters

Bull. I never said that other spells don't work. I just said they suck compared to IGMS and its metamagiced versions.

I HAVE greater spell focus in evocation and I will tell you what chain lightning does for me. It does(provided they fail a save) a decent damage on first target and really crap damage on the rest. That's what it does to me.

Please tell me which arcane high level evocation spells do more damage than firestorm. There is no strategy. Strategy died with SoU. And with HotU even taking out IGMS wouldn't bring it back, since now HP and saves got so high with 40 lvl available, but DC and damage don't scale. Every time I try strategy and mix up other spells I end up dead or spending twice as much spells as I could.

For instance, please tell me a startegy vs lord Drakmarr.

If devs uncapped damage per level on a ton of spells capped at 20 and some of these are without any cap mentioned in description like Vampiric touch, it would perhaps bring some fresh air into spell lists.

If you miss the times before SoU when mages used chain lightning let me explain to you why they won't use it anymore.
In normal NWN it used to be: lvl 20 mage doing 20d6 with chain lightning to a lvl 20 fighter with 300 HP. Now we have lvl 40 mage with marginally higher DC and 2 extra slots on each level doing 20d6 with chain lightning to a lvl 40 fighter with 600 HP and +10 to saves.

You see since most spells that used to work before expansions now have to beat twice as much HP and because number of slots also stops at lvl 20(beside those from stat increases) you now have a problem.

[Sara Tonin]

Finally someone understands what this is all about. Spells with saves have to be better than 20d6(IGMS) to be useful.

Bull. What did arcane casters do before SoU and the, let's face it overpowered, Issac's spells? Spamming Bigby's and IGMS is just the easy tactic, it does not mean that the other spells are not useful. How 'bout taking some spell focus feats in evocation and see what chain lightning will do for you as it is before you cry for more elemental damage? Those upper level arcane damage spells do plenty of damage when compared to the divine casters' damage spells. You can make your caster focussed however you want, you may not be the stereo-type but you can be useful.

I think that the Issac's spells should be made higher level than they are just to force those sorcs to learn to play with the other spells, then we'd get some strategy going out of the arcane spell casters

Bull. I never said that other spells don't work. I just said they suck compared to IGMS and its metamagiced versions.

I HAVE greater spell focus in evocation and I will tell you what chain lightning does for me. It does(provided they fail a save) a decent damage on first target and really crap damage on the rest. That's what it does to me.

Please tell me which arcane high level evocation spells do more damage than firestorm. There is no strategy. Strategy died with SoU. And with HotU even taking out IGMS wouldn't bring it back, since now HP and saves got so high with 40 lvl available, but DC and damage don't scale. Every time I try strategy and mix up other spells I end up dead or spending twice as much spells as I could.

For instance, please tell me a startegy vs lord Drakmarr.

If devs uncapped damage per level on a ton of spells capped at 20 and some of these are without any cap mentioned in description like Vampiric touch, it would perhaps bring some fresh air into spell lists.

If you miss the times before SoU when mages used chain lightning let me explain to you why they won't use it anymore.
In normal NWN it used to be: lvl 20 mage doing 20d6 with chain lightning to a lvl 20 fighter with 300 HP. Now we have lvl 40 mage with marginally higher DC and 2 extra slots on each level doing 20d6 with chain lightning to a lvl 40 fighter with 600 HP and +10 to saves.

You see since most spells that used to work before expansions now have to beat twice as much HP and because number of slots also stops at lvl 20(beside those from stat increases) you now have a problem.

if its so bad why dont you make your own world or play quake or something? Powergaming in NWN is a pretty marginal behaviour. Powergaming in NWN under a specific ruleset is even more marginal.

[sep caldessian]

a lot of NS regulars have left. some will come back when NS4 is out of beta, some wont.

i dont think its unreasonable to be in this type of a beta mod, where everything is being re-tooled from the ground up, and offer up suggestions on balance. the forums are a place for discussion and sharing of viewpoints. if someone voices a concern, he should not be told to leave for another computer game.

[markr22]

I've played mages for a long time. Used to play a lot in NS3 as well.

The main change I like with NS4 is dropping down all the uber-stuff (gear-wise) - you get to work more with a lot of the more subtle nuances of the NWN game. It's more "realistic" - true to form.

But when devs go tweaking within these subtle nuances, they can really unbalance things quickly. Not that all character classes and feats are balanced to begin with, in terms of domination power.... but they unbalance the way that you've learned to work with things - the way you've learned to survive - in relation to other creatures or characters.

They do this, I think, with the hopes of achieving a perfect world of domination ability balance.

But these balances change, depending on if you're part of a group, or solo.

The character classes, and their abilities, have strengths and weaknesses by design. The spells are part of this - and the saves.

If a mage wants to take on a bunch of potent fighting creatures, or creatures with higher spell resistance, and do this without any melee help in the party - they know their risk. And it's very important to know what you have to work with - and that something hasn't been tweaked into uselessness.

Similarly, if a melee-type wants to take on magic-weidling characters or creatures without a magic user in the party, they know their risks.

This idea of tweaking all the complexities that exist to simply balance characters out with each other - and that notion of balance is utterly subjective (dependent upon intimate knowledge of each thing, as well as a lot of experience having played the various characters) - creates more problems than it solves. And is a LOT more work for the devs, when they could be focusing on things that bring more richness to the realm.

If they insist of trying to tweak everything into some subjective notion of perfect balance (or just better balance in some opinion) they should document the changes so that we know what we have to work with.

I was wondering what was up with Prismatic Spray. I think I saw it paralyze a create one time....

That _is_ an awfully high level spell slot to just have wasted.

[Bob]

Agreed, particularly considering the effects are entirely random...

[Spura]

The character classes, and their abilities, have strengths and weaknesses by design. The spells are part of this - and the saves.

If a mage wants to take on a bunch of potent fighting creatures, or creatures with higher spell resistance, and do this without any melee help in the party - they know their risk. And it's very important to know what you have to work with - and that something hasn't been tweaked into uselessness.

Similarly, if a melee-type wants to take on magic-weidling characters or creatures without a magic user in the party, they know their risks.

Interesting reasoning. So mages are weak to fighters without melee in party and fighters are weak to mages without mages in party. Yes! It all makes sense now!

Saves and save spells are part of mage's strength and weakness? How?
How can save spells be a mage weakness? It is like saying the ability to use non-magical weapons is fighter's weakness. And they aren't his strength that's for sure.

Trying to convice me that things work paper-scisor-rock are not gonna work. They don't, ok. Fighters don't wet their pants when they solo mage without a mage friend of their own. Heck, the way things are set up, pure fighters usually have about 75%+ chance to save at lvl 40 and that design makes anything with paladin, BG, CoT or simply spellcraft(6 of the base classes) save 100% of the time. That is what's bothering me. From lvl 20 to 40 saves go up faster than DC unless you take a lot of great int feats(losing on other feats like epic spell focus, epic spell penetration and epic spells).


For instance take Okie Momma J. Cleric 21 CoT 19 I believe. Ok markr22's theory say I need a melee friend vs someone with high saves. Fine. What does she need? Nothing. Of course she can still be killed by IGMS, but this shows there are a lot of chars out there, that can't be killed by anything but IGMS. There are some who say well my fighter this, my fighter that. There are tons of various cleric hybrids and paladins out there and then I take crap from someone who happens to like his fighter pure for RP and whatnot. It ain't my fault you consciously choose a weaker build. You call me a powergamer Sara Tonin yet you expect me to say, yes let's make it so that even most crappily built melee can save most of the time. Powergaming is in no way a marginal behaviour. That is the stupidest statement ever seen on this forum. The popularity of best character build threads in bio forums is proof enough.

Anyway something needs to be done about save issue. And about some spells that have been nerfed too far.

btw in prismatic spray paralyse is by the book. What was nerfed/changed were the damage effects. 80 electrical was changed to something random. Saw it do 15 and 23 damage. Fire damage which is supposed to be 20, I saw it do 43 and 32.

[Brennan068]

But Spura, you what you are requesting is going to force everybody to be a powergamed character. Markr22 wrote a perfectly reasonable statement. You cannot balance the game as it stands now. Calling for nerfing people who happen to have the rock to your scissors, which is really what you are doing, will not balance the game. All it will do is force people to play in your mold instead. I don't like your mold and don't want to play a character that fits it. It seems that others don't either.

I have nothing against people who want a powergamed character, until they start to whinge about the weakness that they take on with their character build and cry for nerfs. Power gaming is all about maximizing something at the expense of other things. Normally people who power game accept their choice and if they find they cannot do something they restart, rebuild, and try again. If your sorc or wiz or whatever you are playing doesn't meet expectations, go back to the drawing board and try something else or abandon that character class route and try something else... don't try to get the devs to wreck someone else's build instead.

[Spura]

Calling for nerfing people who happen to have the rock to your scissors, which is really what you are doing, will not balance the game.

Apparently you are an idiot. I never called for nerfing. I said do something with them save spells and do something about all the durations you've nerfed. As for the rock to my scissors, let me tell you something, I CAN still use IGMS and bigby so the high saves are no rock to my scissors. Of course you fail to comprehend that. No sire, you rather call for nerfing of IGMS(try to make ppl play in your mold) so that quote: "we'd get some strategy going out of the arcane spell casters" and [censored] about how ppl don't know to use save spells. When I call for empowering the save spells, so I could use them instead of IGMS you hate, you tell me I am crying for nerfs of other classes . To top it all off you say that would force everybody to play a powergamed character, while failing to notice that mages are already forced to IGMS and bigby and that at least half the ppl are powergaming as it is. Go to a doctor so you can get your brain fixed because you are making no goddamn sense.

[Bob]

There goes that clairvoyance again...

I think that the Issac's spells should be made higher level than they are just to force those sorcs to learn to play with the other spells, then we'd get some strategy going out of the arcane spell casters

Funny, but when I read that, all I see is Brennan expressing the wish that certain casters try out new ways of doing things.

[Brennan068]

Calling for nerfing people who happen to have the rock to your scissors, which is really what you are doing, will not balance the game.

Apparently you are an idiot.

Well, ok. I'm an idiot yet you are the one who cannot express an idea without resorting to name calling and throwing tantrums.

The quote you take from what I said (as properly quoted by Bob above) clearly has a the emoticon indicating faciciousness... it was a joke. I don't want IGMS to be nerfed. I don't want any of the spells to be nerfed. I don't want the skills to be nerfed. What do you think I think of the nerfing?

I am quite aware that you can probably play the IGMS Bigby spamming kind of sorceror as things stand, I don't believe I ever indicated otherwise. However, you did complain about the high saves on page 2 of this thread citing spellcraft as (at least one of) the major reasons for high saves. Whether or not you intended it, this looked and read like you want the spellcraft skill to be nerfed so as to reduce the saves on spells. If that is not your stand, you should state so.

[Throst54]

spura's just very comfused and cant find a better way to argue with you.. so he just reverts to the simplest form and calls you an idiot..

u shud be flattered... you took the great and all knowing spura to a point where no words could be found.

i commend you! here's a purple heart.

[markr22]

Actually, I think what I was mostly saying was something similar to Spura... that I think spells and saves shouldn't be tweaked unless there's something very, very blatent and strong reason to do so.

If devs do this, they cause a lot of problems. Most of which are unforseen. Not the least of which is just raising the turbulent and sometimes horrific nature of subjectivity amongst the people..

And not only that - when new relases of the game come out, they have all these scripts that they've altered that they'll have to go through to see what's been changed and somehow incorporate, unless they want to fork off into thier own little NWN world.

I created a cleric on NS4 too. In the LA faction. I can't do any levels of Champion of Torm. I can't find anywhere where this is documented.

When I play a solo mage, and have to deal with creatures like, say, the Amazons, who swarm you with big damage hits - I have to really know what I have to work with in terms of spells, what they're capable of, and the liklihoods of them saving against things.

Right now, it's a crap shoot.

Like her, I tend to rely heavily on IGMS and ILMS for the damage.

So much for subtlty I guess.

And I completley agree about the Shadow Shield as well. I can see no reason for limiting its duration when the people who wield death magic have access to spells that will dispel or breach (except for monster abilities, of course, but many monsters seem to have that ability as well here).

Particularly when the cleric Death Ward spell seems to have a normal duration.

It's just a mess. I strongly thing these things should not be tweaked.

That is, unless they start creating melee weapons that do things d20 fire d20 cold and vorpal DC 24 per hit - and give this to every other melee weapon or so - then you maybe should start tweaking things.

I wish they would finish out things like Sunken Isle, maybe do some stuff with creating strongholds or at least housing for characters... just generally expanding the world and its capabilities - rather than mucking about with the intimate fundamentals.

[satantrik]

I created a cleric on NS4 too. In the LA faction. I can't do any levels of Champion of Torm. I can't find anywhere where this is documented.

Information on the Factions and their restricted classes and unique prestige classes can be found <a href="http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic ... 7">here</a>. Lots more information can be found in the <a href="">Neversummer Documentation</a> forum.

And I completley agree about the Shadow Shield as well. I can see no reason for limiting its duration when the people who wield death magic have access to spells that will dispel or breach (except for monster abilities, of course, but many monsters seem to have that ability as well here).

Particularly when the cleric Death Ward spell seems to have a normal duration.

Shadow Shield is a lot more than just Death Ward. Immunity: Death Magic is just one of its many effects. It also provides:

• +5 Natural AC
  Immunity to all Necromancy spells
  Immunity to all Negative Energy damage
  Damage Reduction 10/+3, 100 points worth