I think he was referring to skills, not abilities, when noting that +7 number. Think: Concentration / Discipline / Taunt bonus on a helm.
For the abilities, he does note +8 as being a favorable cap.
When is enough enough?
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I would prefer < 8 if those kinds of items aren't out yet. Even if they have only been out a short while I would still prefer to have the cap at 6 or 7.
I only said 8 because I thought items were already out with that much.
(Though if there wasn't a +12 cap hardcoded I wouldn't care so much since the ability boost spells would still have a use then)
I only said 8 because I thought items were already out with that much.
(Though if there wasn't a +12 cap hardcoded I wouldn't care so much since the ability boost spells would still have a use then)
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I used to be "items/weapons" god on an old mud and this problem is something I've wrestled with. For what it's worth i also agree that an overall "high end equipset" cap should be set out and stuck to. from what I can tell there WAS a high end cap on items, and now that's being revised upwards (this is what's causing the "omg ns35" cries).
while we are far far away from THAT, I've seen this phenomenon on muds and other worlds: new area comes in, it needs "better" eq to draw players in and make it interesting. the next zone has to top or counter THAT, otherwise "theres no point in going there" and over time this arms race spirals up and you end up at ns35 power levels.
I'm not saying high power worlds are BAD, hell I played ns35 for a long time and had tons of fun. but if that kind of world is not in the design plan for ns4 then the power climb warnings are well worth paying attention to. (it CAN happen. I ended up leaving ns35 when they introduced 600+ damage arrows that bypassed all dr and immunities. anybody with umd, ranger or AA levels could use them. quite a moment in the arms race on the pvp server. )
one of the reasons I like this world so much is because many more feats and character build options are worth taking. the core rules are designed for a very low magic powered world (thus stuff like rage is a huge bonus). the more magic you add the more feats and abilities you chip away at. ns35 had only a handful of builds that were viable and you had to avoid many feats and skills that were made useless by high power magic.
I know it's tempting to just up the enhancement bonus, and then up the stoneskin/gr stoneskin to compensate. however if not done carefully (and with a truly final goal in mind) the temptation to up something else to counter this will remain.
while we are far far away from THAT, I've seen this phenomenon on muds and other worlds: new area comes in, it needs "better" eq to draw players in and make it interesting. the next zone has to top or counter THAT, otherwise "theres no point in going there" and over time this arms race spirals up and you end up at ns35 power levels.
I'm not saying high power worlds are BAD, hell I played ns35 for a long time and had tons of fun. but if that kind of world is not in the design plan for ns4 then the power climb warnings are well worth paying attention to. (it CAN happen. I ended up leaving ns35 when they introduced 600+ damage arrows that bypassed all dr and immunities. anybody with umd, ranger or AA levels could use them. quite a moment in the arms race on the pvp server. )
one of the reasons I like this world so much is because many more feats and character build options are worth taking. the core rules are designed for a very low magic powered world (thus stuff like rage is a huge bonus). the more magic you add the more feats and abilities you chip away at. ns35 had only a handful of builds that were viable and you had to avoid many feats and skills that were made useless by high power magic.
I know it's tempting to just up the enhancement bonus, and then up the stoneskin/gr stoneskin to compensate. however if not done carefully (and with a truly final goal in mind) the temptation to up something else to counter this will remain.
The reason I dont play ns 3.5 any more is that you could put the best pre 18 gear you had on your lvl 1 and send him hunt gobs that gave 400+ a kill, and then pick up a dire mace that alone could get him to 20 no matter the build!
NS 4 is all about build even tho high magic items goes in. I would probably prefear if it ems never could make spell buffs and racial abilities obsulute, but with the 12 cap and things like bulls staking with blackguard, that will be rather hard
But an max 8 boost on items, should not be breatched. Maybe rather have a grater divercity in items. For instance if you have items from positive plane, they will protect you better in negative, fire givs items usefull in water and so on.
Do not put to much bonus dmg on items either as it will make wms (my favorite class) way overpovered compared to sneek atacs. I think rouges are suposed to have low ab and high dmg sneak.
Just my thoughts on it.
NS 4 is all about build even tho high magic items goes in. I would probably prefear if it ems never could make spell buffs and racial abilities obsulute, but with the 12 cap and things like bulls staking with blackguard, that will be rather hard
But an max 8 boost on items, should not be breatched. Maybe rather have a grater divercity in items. For instance if you have items from positive plane, they will protect you better in negative, fire givs items usefull in water and so on.Do not put to much bonus dmg on items either as it will make wms (my favorite class) way overpovered compared to sneek atacs. I think rouges are suposed to have low ab and high dmg sneak.
Just my thoughts on it.
heh heh.. run straight to hobbits at lvl 1 with 40 ac, perma haste and a stun weapon that drops 10 dice of extra damage. 
seriously I have to say that ns4 has really great balance and is a joy to play. the 1 prestige class only restriction is pretty much genius, as well as the 5 level floor on cheese classing. the factions/relics are also great and give a good purpose to pvp.
thanks to all the talented devs and dms for making a great game experience.
seriously I have to say that ns4 has really great balance and is a joy to play. the 1 prestige class only restriction is pretty much genius, as well as the 5 level floor on cheese classing. the factions/relics are also great and give a good purpose to pvp.
thanks to all the talented devs and dms for making a great game experience.
This is WERY truedisastro wrote:seriously I have to say that ns4 has really great balance and is a joy to play. the 1 prestige class only restriction is pretty much genius, as well as the 5 level floor on cheese classing. the factions/relics are also great and give a good purpose to pvp.
thanks to all the talented devs and dms for making a great game experience.
you do goblins at lvl1?? I normally headed into the underdark, start with orcs, you hit lvl3 in about 1 minute, then keep going deeper, do duregar for a bit, then drow, then menzo - camp the wiz tower for a bit then head into the nexus in lloth's and go to undermountain...
But ns3.5 is boring, the fun doesn't begin until you're lvl40, on ns4 it's fun at least by 16 when you finally have some decent gear to wear... And the challenge is building a good character rather than gathering the same set of gear everyone else has...
But ns3.5 is boring, the fun doesn't begin until you're lvl40, on ns4 it's fun at least by 16 when you finally have some decent gear to wear... And the challenge is building a good character rather than gathering the same set of gear everyone else has...
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Lorkar1
...and then to giant slope western followed by giant fortress then a couple of runs on the EC trail and then back to undermountain to enslaved and then starfall.Celorn wrote:you do goblins at lvl1?? I normally headed into the underdark, start with orcs, you hit lvl3 in about 1 minute, then keep going deeper, do duregar for a bit, then drow, then menzo - camp the wiz tower for a bit then head into the nexus in lloth's and go to undermountain...
What made it fun for me was the exploring. I only played 3.5 for 7-8 months before I came to 4 but there were still pre-EC maps that I hadn't visited. Something I aim to do in 4 is visit every map and take a screen shot of the exposed map that way I can piece them together and make a true map of Aetheria. Right now I am trying to find the program that will accomplish what I need to do.
yeah.. the EC-run loop is for the last 10 or 20 levels depending on the build...problem is EVERYONE is doing that so it's congested. A lot of ns3 seems 'slapped-on' rather than one continuous thought - like ns4 for the most part (except for some strange west exits that enter south or north)
As for mapping all of ns4.. i'd love to do that too.. i have thought about it many times, and even started it, but it's a daunting task -- perhaps if you/we can rally a few people together to take on different regions it could be done in good time.
As for a program to do it... I have one started in photoshop, for the most part you're only limited by memory (except for saving in some formats).
As for mapping all of ns4.. i'd love to do that too.. i have thought about it many times, and even started it, but it's a daunting task -- perhaps if you/we can rally a few people together to take on different regions it could be done in good time.
As for a program to do it... I have one started in photoshop, for the most part you're only limited by memory (except for saving in some formats).
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Lorkar1
I have the Giant Mountain pics done as well as the areas surrounding AO and most of the area around Garagoth. And I got a good chunk of the underdark last night. I think I will do FD today.Celorn wrote:As for mapping all of ns4.. i'd love to do that too.. i have thought about it many times, and even started it, but it's a daunting task -- perhaps if you/we can rally a few people together to take on different regions it could be done in good time.
As for a program to do it... I have one started in photoshop, for the most part you're only limited by memory (except for saving in some formats).
As far as programs go I need something with less of a learning curve since I am a hardware and OS guy. I have photoshop but still haven't figured out the right way to utilize it(self-taught, which doesn't say all that much). I need something I can layout like one would lay out tiles on a table and move them around.
photoshop isn't THAT difficult, I'm self-taught too (since version 5 many many years ago) and with LAYERS, moving map pieces around, even stretching or squeezing them to fit is fairly simple.
Perhaps if you set up an ftp site and have a few people contribute their pics, then I, or someone else could assemble them.
The main problem is that not all the maps line-up properly in the game, so there will be lots and lots of 'gaps' and even worse, some maps exit to 2 illogical neighboring maps in a strange way (ie: Enchanted Forest, Angmar wastes, etc.....), and amazons kind of cuts-over some maps in the north area.
as for zooming maps, i'd say the normal zoom level is best, the shrunk version loses a lot of detail, and the tile-drawn full zoom is WAY too big, plus due to the line-up problems wouldn't really be useful anyhow.
Perhaps if you set up an ftp site and have a few people contribute their pics, then I, or someone else could assemble them.
The main problem is that not all the maps line-up properly in the game, so there will be lots and lots of 'gaps' and even worse, some maps exit to 2 illogical neighboring maps in a strange way (ie: Enchanted Forest, Angmar wastes, etc.....), and amazons kind of cuts-over some maps in the north area.
as for zooming maps, i'd say the normal zoom level is best, the shrunk version loses a lot of detail, and the tile-drawn full zoom is WAY too big, plus due to the line-up problems wouldn't really be useful anyhow.
back to the original question
This thread has wandered very far afield, I want to go back to the beginning on this thread.
It looks to me, just reading through, that the high level crafted items are hugely powerful and very much headed in the direction of the uber items of NS3.5.
I think this is what the original question on this thread was, I don't think that's a question that has been answered.
Now you might say it makes crafting important, that's true, so what, are we pretending that crafters are actually in existence because someone wants to play a crafter? All I see this doing is eating my playing time as I have to raise crafters so my players can have a chance at survival! The +10 and +11 items littered all over the crafting tables don't sound like a good idea to game or character developement.
Couldn't high level crafted items just be different instead of Uber? like a dex item that wasnt a boot or a strength item that wasn't a glove or a con item that wasn't a belt?
Oops... that became more of a rant than I intended, but I really want to know the why here I see a big downside.
It looks to me, just reading through, that the high level crafted items are hugely powerful and very much headed in the direction of the uber items of NS3.5.
I think this is what the original question on this thread was, I don't think that's a question that has been answered.
Now you might say it makes crafting important, that's true, so what, are we pretending that crafters are actually in existence because someone wants to play a crafter? All I see this doing is eating my playing time as I have to raise crafters so my players can have a chance at survival! The +10 and +11 items littered all over the crafting tables don't sound like a good idea to game or character developement.
Couldn't high level crafted items just be different instead of Uber? like a dex item that wasnt a boot or a strength item that wasn't a glove or a con item that wasn't a belt?
Oops... that became more of a rant than I intended, but I really want to know the why here I see a big downside.
Re: back to the original question
I think puting stats(that staks) on other items than usual, would just make em more uber, and the chance to max out stats ould be, well, likely.Rummybum wrote:This thread has wandered very far afield, I want to go back to the beginning on this thread.
It looks to me, just reading through, that the high level crafted items are hugely powerful and very much headed in the direction of the uber items of NS3.5.
I think this is what the original question on this thread was, I don't think that's a question that has been answered.
Now you might say it makes crafting important, that's true, so what, are we pretending that crafters are actually in existence because someone wants to play a crafter? All I see this doing is eating my playing time as I have to raise crafters so my players can have a chance at survival! The +10 and +11 items littered all over the crafting tables don't sound like a good idea to game or character developement.
Couldn't high level crafted items just be different instead of Uber? like a dex item that wasnt a boot or a strength item that wasn't a glove or a con item that wasn't a belt?
Oops... that became more of a rant than I intended, but I really want to know the why here I see a big downside.
Putting +2 dex on a belt while +8 boots exist is really just the same as putting +10 on a boot, unless the belt also has some horrible drawback, in which case it's not 'better'.
And unfortunately if crafted items aren't 'better' in the end-game no one will ever do it, which would be a shame because it'd be a great addition.
As for competing, you don't need to make a _full_ set of crafters. Make one or two and trade with others that also only have a limited set of crafters for your full set of uber gear.
There are options for uber gear that don't involve stat boosts. High skill bonuses are fine for skills that use opposed rolls (Taunt, Conc, Hide, MS, Spot, etc) and for which the DC can be adjusted easily (Search, OL, DT).
And unfortunately if crafted items aren't 'better' in the end-game no one will ever do it, which would be a shame because it'd be a great addition.
As for competing, you don't need to make a _full_ set of crafters. Make one or two and trade with others that also only have a limited set of crafters for your full set of uber gear.
There are options for uber gear that don't involve stat boosts. High skill bonuses are fine for skills that use opposed rolls (Taunt, Conc, Hide, MS, Spot, etc) and for which the DC can be adjusted easily (Search, OL, DT).