It's a tough world out there.

[Rainswept]

Neversummer is a harsh world, filled with terrifyingly powerful monsters, deadly traps, and capricious Gods. It's harsh, and seems to get tougher all the time.

So I'd like to carefully broach the subject of "how much is too much?" Over the year or so that I've been playing, there have been lots of changes to NS4, and for the most part I have very few complaints about each individual change. Our overworked devs put a considerable amount of time and thought into each change before they make it, and I want to start by saying this work is appreciated.

Now most of the changes to NS4 really are intended to bring balance to pvp, and accomplish that wonderfully. One of the best things about this server is the huge variety of builds that are actually useful pvp, it's friggin beautiful. It's the environment out on the adventure side I'd like us all to discuss.

There have been a great many changes to quite frankly make NS4 just brutally difficult. Sometimes I think that's awesome, what fun would places like Celestia and the Abyss be if they were easy? The thing is, the whole server has gotten very nasty in most all areas beyond level 30ish. Often I don't personally notice, because I'm a guild member, already have multiple toons at level 40, and have access to great gear etc. But what's happened is that all these changes, things like adding traps that will kill and level drain you, altering the AI on what seems like half the mobs on the server to make them meaner, adding new and improved mobs to areas that previously were considered too easy... all these things are turning the level grind for normal/casual/new/off-peak players into a nightmare.

The veteran players deal with it, take huge or well built groups to level all together, and are always going to find a way to progress. But new players to NS4 are to put it bluntly, screwed. More than that, what's happening is that players are forced more and more into the same ole areas to level over and over and over. Everyone knows what I mean, how many hours have we all spent dulling our swords in Dwarf Home & Skara? There is a certain logic behind the fact that every monster on NS4 who has Ice-Storm will spam it, and more logic that maybe there should be more and deadlier mobs in areas than before, and again, it's not too unreasonable taken alone that there might be traps out there which can kill you, but when we start dealing with all these things together with the very frequent nerfs which over time lower the effectiveness of most every build... It's become quite frankly more of a pain to simply level your toons to 40 than many people are willing to deal with.

Every week we get new players, and let's be honest, most of them leave and leave quickly. It's at the point now where players in off-prime timezones are taking weeks and weeks just to move from 35-40, and have absolutely no chance to ever see places like Celestia/Abysss. There are so many really neat areas like Water Plane, which are really cool looking and challenging, but give so few rewards in exp/gear that the only time anyone ever goes there is to farm the boss for his drops.

Anyway this post is getting long, so let me sum up. NS4 kicks a lot of butt, and we all very much love the difficulty in endgame areas like DWP etc. We also appreciate and understand that making leveling tough adds a certain amount of meaning and appreciation for achieving 40. I really think some thought should be given to raising the amount of XP received from monsters in many areas, however. We could really really use some tweaks that just make leveling a bit less monotonous. Challenge is fun, challenge with very little reward is much less fun.

Please don't view this as a criticism of the dev team, simply as feedback from what I'm seeing/hearing as a reaction from players and my own experiences.

[Alkapwn]

I disagree. With all the new gear adds i find it actually easier and smaller parties excell at epic areas. I remember a time when a large party heading into dwp would wipe instantly . Now I can go in with 2 well built toons and do very very well. Gear and creature knowledge is key .
Rainswept must forget the days of grinding dwarfhome for 10 levels because thats the only place there was. I think the leveling nowadays is actually much much quicker and have seen new players get 40's within a month or 2 with little help of large parties (or swollen guilds with PL'rs and dual loggers). I know some players who've played here for years who' have never leveled to 40 and now have plenty.
Players who grind areas or meta-level are missing out on the whole adventure of the game.

[Bargeld]

I've been contemplating some thoughts ever since 1.69 patch came out at the beginning of the year and the adjustments to the server began in order to compensate. One of the changes that had a HUGE impact was spatial collision and mapping... meaning that pre-patch, you could have all 8 people in your group attacking a single mob in a corner (and vise versa). Players were able to all just squeeze on top of each other, with no limits as to the actuall space taken up by the character. Post-patch, we saw that you can't run around the mobs as easily as before. When you corner an enemy, you may only be able to get 3 people attacking them now (and vice versa), larger summons like the PM's have to be 'let in' to the attacking ring of players on an enemy, meaning that your wimpy melee'r should back off and give up his attack space to the better melee'r.

Basically, it all boils down to 'things changed'. Some were beneficial and some were not, but in the sense of the difficulty of the areas that we explore, they needed to be adjusted after 1.69 was implemented. This meant that areas were redesigned to add/remove ramps, doorways, even entire maps and areas got changed. On top of it, throw the addition of at least 6 new areas into the mix and you end up with very busy devs making subjective decisions on how to best 'fix' an area.

We are still bumping into these problems to this day (1st skara map after the entrance, where toons get stuck on the parapets). And i'm sure they are still being adjusted. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Dalan]

New players are always on the minds of Devs/DMs when changes are discussed and/or implemented, but as you can see, the sum of all those changes have made NS4 into an awesome mod. Almost every build you can think of can be viable in Aetheria. Can other servers say the same? Also, the staff loves to make things hard for players, and logically the newer players will have the hardest time of it.

What the staff really aims for is this : As new players enter Aetheria, they are immediately fought over by many veteran players to come and join them in their glorious faction. Almost like the veteran players are an extension of the Faction Ambassador's located in the Planar Rift.

When those new players gravitate to the players/faction they like best, relationships build ingame between you vets and the new folks. Good times in the making, eh? And to top it off, you vets make available to the new guys a bank of knowledge, advice, help in gear/leveling, etc, etc...

All this seems to be the way things have been. Have things gotten to the point to where this is no longer true?

[frogofpeace]

Rainswept must forget the days of grinding dwarfhome for 10 levels because thats the only place there was.

Oh, we LONGED for 10 levels of dwarfhome! I remember grinding for 15 levels in Zons ...

The low/mid-level areas don't seem to have changed too much in difficulty. For the upper level areas, well, they're upper level, but how long are areas around before somebody cracks em? A month for Celestia and the Abyss? Three months?

Underutilized areas are great, lets you get away from the knuckleheads. I always assumed what Dalan said about how the devs approach them.

[Rainswept]

I remember a time when a large party heading into dwp would wipe instantly . Now I can go in with 2 well built toons and do very very well. Gear and creature knowledge is key .

Maybe I wasn't clear, DWP and areas like it have their own rewards in terms of gear, and I love that they are tough. (BTW, If you can kill Lolth with "2 well built toons", I take my hat off to you.)

Players who grind areas or meta-level are missing out on the whole adventure of the game.

I agree! The issue is that some areas simply provide better xp (and often gear.) Choosing to fight in many areas on the server is simply going to take longer and provide less rewards, so choosing to level there is really doing it just for the novelty of it. I -could- go to Water Plane and level, but the old standby grinding spots are going to be faster xp, less dangerous, and provide better drops.

I suppose it's more an issue of making the rewards in these places match the difficulty level, rather than the difficulty level being too high.

Have things gotten to the point to where this is no longer true?

Certainly not, it does happen and happen regularly. Even still, it's only going to help a fairly small percentage of new players. The lucky ones who happen to catch the eye of a vet or guild who decide to take them under their wing. The deck is stacked against them by the overall nature of huge changes NS4 has made in comparison to normal NWN. The changes make the server better than other servers, but it also means learning an almost entirely new game.

Keep in mind guys, many of the veterans replying to this thread have been playing this server for years, and have learned the changes, learned the maps, learned the enemies, learned the other players, and remember well when it was harder in some ways and easier in others. Trying to learn all that now, years and years into the server, is tough, so adding such a very slow or monotonous level grind is certainly going to be a big detractor. The greatest things about this server are also some of the most subtle, while issues like time required to level are among the 1st things people ask.

[Dazrield]

It is harder as a new player... I played here a few months about a year ago.. then recently joined again a couple months ago. Not til a few weeks ago that I discovered that the epic skill focus tumble I took doesn't do anything and turned my vault into a bunch of toons wasting feats.

The thing that is most difficult however is finding peeps to party with at high lvls. Seems like all the guilds just take their own at the upper lvls mostly to the sweet spots such as abyss(been there once) and those other places mentioned that I have yet to see. I've gotten into a number of TC/NC groups to go places, and a couple SL/MA ones. Of course getting outfitted is made that much tougher when lvl 40's come along to DE and bust my lvl 33 toon and his party up something good.

I have been the recipient of many a gift from older players.. I'd mention them but there are far too many. Also I've found a couple of players I can go to for build advice(and I hope they are good players :p). There's a number of players out there that do help, and want the new players to be more competitive, but then again.. it also seems that there's some that fear us newbies getting properly equipped and joining in the relic game and do all they can to slow us down.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Rain's initial point which I think many of you missed is getting buried here oh well. We'll start a new post about the pointlessness of waterplane.

Sticking with the New Player welcome thread, I think this is one thing that we all need to appreciate. A new player makes a shout like "Drizzt - Why can't I be an Evil Drow Paladin in Ancient Ones" or something. What happens? Two or three or ten smart elleck comments come in reply. We often see a newbie wandering around Melencia - "Donk" on the head with a hammer. We all do it to some degree. None of us are as helpful as we could be. And Dalan's exactly Right. This is our responsibility as veterans to welcome the new ones. Each of us is proud of having established himself/herself on this very difficult server and aren't often humble enough to drop a new player 20k in gold - and say, hey if you want to join the guys everyone loves to hate, join PWnD. (<--Or whatever is appropriate.)

I've talked to new players in other factions and helped them with gear/cash. I even ran to Daeron to help a new NC Character get to Avendell. I've told them that FON and CLAD and TSS are great guilds. I've told players in SL that IO, and DD are worthy opponents and that the GODS/MADD duo is becoming a force to be reckoned with. The key is to build excitement for new players. Show them that they can get involved in this great server and that they can become a difference maker on this server. Invite them on some epic runs. If you're with new players take them to Air Plane just for a change of pace instead of just going for the max xp per minute option.

Rufio is a great example. He's come here not long ago. He took some licks initially but he kept trying. Now he's one of my favorite opponents. I almost never beat him. But he's always gracious and respectful. Especially on the forums. I wouldn't have tried to run him off just to not have to fight him later. We are all lucky to have him and all the new players.

Let's get some more.

- Glow -

(rain let's start a new topic about some of the areas that need work. i think that's what you meant to have this about.)

[Rainswept]

Certainly specific threads covering the various points are an option. This thread was more in the nature of open discussion about the recent and future changes, and giving players an option to give feedback to the DMs/Devs. I didn't start it with more of a goal in mind than that, but a couple of the points like this are evolving into topics of their own.

BTW, having youe n00b named Drizzt was just a little too on-point LOL. It also reminds me of a story I once read by R.A. Salvatore. In it, the goddess of the realm would periodically appear in mortal form, posing as someone in need. If those who came across her helped, they were rewarded, if they refused or were rude, they were punished. I bet a few stunts like that on here would promote general helpfulness

[diddy33]

Rufio is a great example. He's come here not long ago. He took some licks initially but he kept trying. Now he's one of my favorite opponents. I almost never beat him. But he's always gracious and respectful. Especially on the forums. I wouldn't have tried to run him off just to not have to fight him later. We are all lucky to have him and all the new players.

Did Rufio get access to Glow's forum account?

[muze]

Keep in mind guys, many of the veterans replying to this thread have been playing this server for years, and have learned the changes, learned the maps, learned the enemies, learned the other players, and remember well when it was harder in some ways and easier in others. Trying to learn all that now, years and years into the server, is tough, so adding such a very slow or monotonous level grind is certainly going to be a big detractor. The greatest things about this server are also some of the most subtle, while issues like time required to level are among the 1st things people ask.

Rain, I agree with quite a few of your points but felt I would like to add my two cents worth in.
While you are right that the majority of those replying to this thread are the veterans I however am not. In relation to the server (even the game) I am a Noob. I have only been on the server for 4 months. From start to finish my first lvl 40 took approx 1 ½ months and that was after grinding through learning how to navigate and build with a simple Pure Fighter. Yes I did have assistance from a respected guild member however that assistance was primarily information. Lvling and party invites, I for the most part instigated on my own as well as most of learning how to navigate through the maps. When starting to work on my first real toon that ultimately got 40 only near the last 5 lvls did I even start to see some of the “Epic” areas and start to align myself with a Faction and Guild. My lvl 40 was “ground out” in dwarves, and to be honest nothing was more satisfying, and only after getting my first 40 did I gain acceptance to a Guild.
All that being said I fully admit that without the help of those that were willing to do so I probably would have quit the server out of frustration. This being said, while in my case I did run the gambit and earn my way by grinding out slowly in order to get into the Guild of my choosing this does not need to be the case for all newbie’s.
From what I has seen and experienced so far on this server, there are multiple players as well as factions that actively pursue and recruit players from day one on the server that can help provide the same help and game experience that I did if they only ask.
If it puts in into perspective at all from a Newbie I have gotten to sit back and listen to the stories of building on reflections vs. prime to the combination of both and all the changes, additions, and nerfs that have taken place since then. Speaking as one that cannot lament the loss of these things I can say that the server is very fun. While challenging and something not to be taken on without support the rewards of sticking it out are tremendous. (i.e. being a 4 month noob on the server and just the other day getting to see the demise of Lolth In DWP first hand…..AWSOME!!)

[weasel423]

You have to be a little careful about inviting "noobs" on epic gear runs... I have thought I was inviting "noobs" but instead was inviting untagged toons from an allied guild that were actually toons created by players of enemy guilds (crafters, etc). Those invited toons became "traitors" and told the enemy guild where we were going. I am WAY more careful now on who I invite on epic runs.

[Dazrield]

You have to be a little careful about inviting "noobs" on epic gear runs... I have thought I was inviting "noobs" but instead was inviting untagged toons from an allied guild that were actually toons created by players of enemy guilds (crafters, etc). Those invited toons became "traitors" and told the enemy guild where we were going. I am WAY more careful now on who I invite on epic runs.

And that's one of the reasons why newer players have a tough time. It's not that the areas are too tough IMO, it's simply the fact that we don't get invited on the epic runs as often either due to mistrust or doubt of our skills. I can understand it.. after all, why would you invite someone newer when your epic run might get blown apart due to a traitor after an hour or two in before you get to the boss you want to kill?

[Chernobyl_Glow]

i agree with ya weasel. i just choose to live my life as a trusting person and if that gets me betrayed occasionally i'm ok with it. even in that result i'm proud of who i am. trusting everyone leaves me vulnerable but I'd rather be vulnerable than calloused. its what i am.

if you're worried about getting tricked by the pwnd guys, all our crafters are so carefully named, "PWnD_Crafter_Arcane" etc. You won't be fooled by us.

...

As for doubting a new players skillz, the first time i went to the afore mentioned water plane i died so often and repeatedly that it was embarrassing. but they tolerated me and i learned. if veteran players aren't willing to make that investment and tolerate a little learning on a trip then we'll get no where.

...

another story about water plane, i was trying to get a diving helm with a couple of my 40's. i died. took two more down there for a quick rescue and got them killed too. then two more and died again. i had 6 dead 40 lvl characters in the water boss's room. all for one diving helm that didn't actually drop. hate that place.

- Glow -

[Bargeld]

Since this topic has gone the direction of new players, I thought I would throw something from previous years experience in a different game. In that game, we were separated into 'zones', kinda like factions. Each zone was it's own micro-community within the community of the game as a whole. The admins of each zone worked to better both communities, whereas players tended to focus on their home zone and maintaining their community there. As the game got older, the idea of competing for newbies became a reality, and as the zone populations were dropping over time (and the entire game community) people would move from zone to zone. Rules about advertising in other zones were set in place and blah blah. The point is that competing for membership is not just specific to us here, nor is it a new thing.

My personal feelings on the topic are that the behavior of the newbie defines their interest. In all the examples I have seen thrown out on the forums here, there are personalities behind those newbies, and they range the entire gamut. If a player gets pk'd and quits the server after 2 days of trying, then I doubt that that person was the 2+ hours a day, 5 days a week (or more) that would be considered a 'highly valued member'. It's probably some dude who likes NWN, beat the OC 300 times and is now looking at multiplayer as an extension of content. They will find the content they are looking for and this may not be the server for them. Even if it IS the type of server they want, they could be some obnoxious 12 year old griefer, who only wants to make people mad. I know our faction(s) don't want this guy, and I know the NC/TC guys wouldn't. I doubt AO/RK would even want them But the point is that it IS a great server, and he just might not be able to fit into the existing crowd.

If I ever learned anything in all those years of being an admin of THE newbie zone for the entire game... don't market for the sake of marketing. The server is what it is and to candy coat it only wastes people's time. All of those experiences are what defines this server... we are all still here aren't we?