new changes

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:25 pm

i know we have been getting alot of new changes recently but i wonder if some are intentional. the one i'm concerned with the most is the isaacs...no so much that the damage spread out can't kill an arctic wolf. more like is it supposed to be back a vast volley of missles that springs out and lags you to death....literally?

BlkMamba · Post by **BlkMamba** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:37 am

well, i like the changes to the giants and from what i hear the efreet are awesome to.....i think extreme the changes to the mages wasnt called for, but thats my opinion now everyones gonna find the next class to complain about bet'n monks or clerics, gonna change that one to?

Post by **Lokey** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:25 pm

Everyone enjoys cr 30 mages that cast daze a few useless times

Auto quicken might be going too far, only Jin and the Seer have that I think.

There's been a few other complaints about IxMS and graphics chop (c'mon, you could put my comp together for $250 today and it does fine), so I'll scale back on the visuals. Change sometime in the next few hours.

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:27 pm

thanks for the change to graphics. not that it was too much for me, but i don't like to watch 50 little magic missles fly around. i have been experimenting with some of the dumb spells like great thunderclap. a nice spell that make you do all 3 saves fort, reflex, and will. only bad part is that for a lvl 7 spell it only lasts like 1 round.

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:27 pm

ok, we need to have a serious discussion about the spells. if we get all the mage spells nerfed up beyond useability why can't we have full durations? if the summons are supposed to be so much better why can't a lvl 13 summon last more than a round against mobs. why aren't we allowed to have familiars and companions while they are reworked? these are all valid questions that should have a reasonable answer. mainly the summons one. if its a high lvl summon why does it have less ac than a lvl 1 fighter in full ns4 lvl 1 gear? +20 something ab 150 and over hp and only has a pitiful 20ac. a mob of goblins can make short work of an elemental. please for the love of god don't give me that if you take conjuration spell focus crap your summons get better, because i still don't see anyone running around with conjuration and super summons. they may get better but i'm willing to bet 30ac is still too much to ask. if it is that high a lvl why can't it have a base ac over 30 high 30's for lvl 9 summons?

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:06 pm

oh yeah, i forgot that i had another question. why was the bard spell dirge disabled?

Terminal Insanity · Post by **Terminal Insanity** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:32 pm

Watch it, you are crossing the line from player to reject.

Not only will players hate you more for defending the unbeatable overpowered mage classes, but you are also labeling yourself as ignore material for the DMs and Devs.

Gimp away, fellas, let the mages have it!
Don't worry, i don't play mage much anymore other then to craft (funny i mention that, but arcane crafting, yep! gimped!), once i get my SD Dragon and my monk chars up, be sure those classes will be gimped as well!

One class at a time, we will balance NS4, to the point of pointlessness!

Post by **Flailer** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:45 pm

Um, I will tell you that no spell changes went in today. They're the same they've been since last update at least...

And, I would agree - the spells need to be completely looked over - not to disable but to balance and enhance. We're working on it...

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:08 pm

looking over and reworking is much appreciated. some of the more usefull spells for mages got disabled and nerfed. that only leaves 2 classes reliable enough to take things on, druids and clerics. although i was suprised when using my druid that call lightning doesn't work inside anymore.....really suprised me cuz all i had to fall back on was flame lash that does a whoppin 3pts damage on average. i don't mind balance of chars but sometimes stripping what is commonly used isn't the best answer. i have had this discussion in posts with TBD before and he thinks i should switch to a dex'r or SD class instead of using munchkin mages. not that i don't like my mage, but i hate putting up one of my chars so that i can play with the other 15 that are better at it. sometimes you just don't want to stand in the shadows, stand in the fight, or make an uber dragon shape build to have some fun.

Donan · Post by **Donan** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:20 pm

Couple quick things, first I am glad Death here actually put some figures and examples with some kind of suggestion. I seea few people complain and 2 things bother me, it may be a change thats an hour old and it is obviuosly being looked at and the other is to whine all day in shout but not even take the time to make a post with some creattive critisism just flame all day in forum/shout channel.

if anyone keeps coming back its cause they like it here and what do you think someone new here thinks when they login and see people saying how much it sucks.

so take 5 mins and write something down besides "they r nerfin everything it sux now just wait til they nerf every other class to..." besides some factual feedback I would guess there may be a possibility that the devs don't realize the changes are having so much of a negative effect... even though they are suppose to be perfect

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:24 pm

my mage now did 7 damage each to a mob of goblins!!! hawhawhaaw. Seriously, the greater isaac's has been rendered weak. The purpose of having higher level spells is to be able to basically "do more", either by having bigger summons, more firepower, longer lasting enchantments, more crippling paralysis.

Seriously, the isaac's need to be reworked. dividing the damage on all enemies on the area will defeat the purpose of using higher level spells in the first place. Possible suggestion would be to limit the number of missiles to hit all enemies in the area to 1 missile per four levels (similar to a magic missile) to a maximum of five missiles. So if the mage is level 16 and battling 7 enemies, at least his missiles can only hit 4 of them. At least the damage is the same, but only fewer enemies are affected. This would also help on the graphic rendering issue since there's less missiles to render.

i fell on my seat when i shot 7 damage to that mob the other day, then they all just drank pots

Kromix · Post by **Kromix** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:49 am

mestil acid sheath... and those damage dealing armor/spells... they do no damage really, or not enough to have a fighter think twice about atacking...
the one thing of mages is that they are extremely hard to level alone, and hard in a party (from 1st to lvl 12ish) that is because nothing does damage really.... but after enduring that woudnt you think that they became more powerful because of the HARD work put into them at lower levels that they will be a ble to deal more damage and have good defensive spells... a lvl 24 mage has roughly 30+- ac and with buffs arround 30+-,+2 . if you get hit when having mestil acid sheath on, you get dealt 60+ damage including the kd while they get damaged lik 12 hp IF, the major reason why a fighter build cannot stand to the mage is because the mage will come by invisible and cast finger or wail on the fighter...

it's rare to see a mage not kill anything with finger or wail because they are ones of the only things that actually work, and the rest of spells are to get out of trouble after the death spells ran out. i just dont bother with persistent AoE spells because they are just worthless with very few exeptios.

i'll add to the high level summons and other summons

as 24 lvls in wizard and 30 intel no casted buffs

Spell--------Summon---------AC--------AB---------LVL------------HP

Gate---------Pitfiend-----------24--------29----------21------------204
--------------Planetar-----------27--------31---------20------------200
--------------Black slaad-------25--------27----------20------------225
GPlanar-----G Slaad-----------22--------22----------16------------145
--------------Vrok---------------27--------25---------18-------------138
Planar-------B Slaad-----------19--------17----------12------------124
--------------Hound Arc--------23--------18----------13------------91
Sum 9-------Elder Water------25--------23----------21------------253
--------------Elder Earth-------23--------25----------19------------293
--------------elder air----------31--------26----------19------------185
--------------elder fire---------27--------24----------20------------192
Sum 8-------Great Fire--------23--------21----------17------------153
--------------Great Wat--------22--------17----------17------------183
--------------great earth-------22--------23----------16------------218
--------------Great air----------25--------23----------18-----------145
Mord Swrd--Horror------------21--------19----------16-----------138

they offer no help at all...

and the clleric death domain does not have his shadow summon

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:25 pm

Nemesis: since when was a level 6 spell considered high level? Technically, its considered mid level, as only a Quicken II would be needed to get it off. High level spells (7, 8, 9, epic) should actually gain more use now that Isaacs is restored. Mages will have to learn to use different spells in different situations ... imagine that. AOE (DBFB) for multiple enemies, Isaacs for singles.

Kromix: would you make a non-necro focus and wonder why your death magic didn't kill anything? Likewise, why would one make a non-summon specialist and expect the summon to be an ubertank? Doesn't make sense.

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:31 pm

if you can name off some good spells to use that are lvl 7,8,and 9 that are as good as DBFB or Isaacs i'll be willing to listen. just remember to leave out the ones that are disabled or do no damage.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:42 pm

I haven't really played my wizard in about 2 weeks (ever since I heard MA arcane crafting was broken) except to make potions, so I haven't seen the Isaac changes first hand, but I agree with the people who say that mages really need the extra damage potential on the spells.

NS 4 monsters tend to have lots of hps IME. Heaps and heaps of hps in fact. I assume this is to balance out the huge amount of damage that fighters can dish out. For example, I have a dwarf fighter that hit a goblin the other day with a crit that did 115 damage unbuffed, and 70-90 damage is about the normal range for most of his crits. In addition most monsters resist some types of damage. In terms of elemental damage (which a mage will be most concerned about), fire and cold are the most common, with electricity coming close behind. When a good many of these monsters have evasion as well, most arcane spells like fireball (and delayed blast fireball), cone of cold, ice storm, lightning bolt/chain lightning and so on become utterly useless. That's why pretty much every mage was using Isaac to begin with. It dished out the damage and didn't miss.

As for summons, I don't really rely on them much. One of the main reason is that the AI on some of the ones I've used from the lower levels are horribly bad. It doesn't help either that once you get to about level 12 or so, summons become increasingly more useless because they get chewed up pretty quickly in a fight. One of the only reasons I use summons are to get the enemies gathered together close enough so I can waste them with a barrage of Isaacs, and I'm not the only one who's done this.