The new healing potion thing

[Aarkon Draco]

point blank i dont like it why everyone should be hampered because some cant win unless they chug potions is wrong imo.

some changes id suggest,

make the cooldown 1 min real time from the last potion you consumed. toons with alot of HP that need more than one pot to heal up to full or near will realy feel this as it is right now. the 1 min cooldown allows a player to reset the penalty betwien mobs on maps where resting can not be done.

50% max penalty is a bit high also perhaps 7% per pot to a max of 35% penalty. this agian will help thoes with alot of HP yet still maintain a decent penalty if one chuggs them non stop.

some other ideas that would negate the whole thing entirely.

make it a rule you can only consume 2 potions in PvP this keeps the spirit of the healing penalty yet allows players to heal normaly in PvM.

add a 25% chance after 3 potions in 45 seconds that the consumer will be poisioned or otherwise damaged by the massive ammounts of magic being sent into the body 5 con per failed 25% roll.

[Wolfarus]

Yeah i agree. This puts a severe clamp on people who are experienced enough in building chars, to be able to solo any of the area's past ice trolls.

What was the point of this? to try and balance the pm-chugger issue? Well, pm's are STILL crit. immune, and even at 50% effectiveness, a cure crit pot will do more then enough to keep them alive from their "nickel and dime" damage that they'd receieve in melee.

If this is just a test thing, see how it works out for pm's (then made to only effect pm's) fine. Just means ill be starting on my new char ideas allot sooner then expected, because im not going to risk dying even more then i do now when i take my high lvl's out.

If its going to be perm. for everybody, how about changing the pot prices then? 10k for a cure crit (now) pot is a bit extreme

[VagaStorm]

10k for a cure crit (now) pot is a bit extreme

It would be, but then agen I belive they only cost 1200 where as full heals which the pms never use cost 10k :p

[Wolfarus]

Point being that now with this new pot-nerf in, in a high lvl battle, your 10k-a-piece cure pots turn into cure crit pots, which currently retail for 1200k a piece. quite a difference.

And your cure crit pots turn into cure serious, and downward and downward. Burning 10k in gold everytime you need to heal 150 pts in damage is rediculous

[Findor]

Implemented diminishing returns on healing potions and scrolls.
They'll be 15% less effective per use down to a floor of 50%. Effect is cleared on resting.

15 is not divisible into 50; might I suggest you change it to 10 or 25 % instead. That way, there is consistent degradation down to 50.

[Binkyuk]

Actually the PvM ramifications are the main point of the change, rather than PvP (and I wasn't thinking of PMs specifically at all).
We felt that the ability of any character to heal themselves up to full health very easily cheapened the role of the healing classes a lot - really, when did most bards, clerics and druids actually cast a healing spell in anger? Most battles even against difficult bosses severely lack teamwork.

Enforced cooldowns and such were considered, but we thought that this way it'd lessen the impact except when fighting hard battles. When fighting mobs roughly your level where you can get away with 1-3 pot chugs you'll barely notice the difference.
We realise that this makes the current high level planar content a heck of a lot harder, and I plan to do some alterations to creatures (or at least CR anyway) to bring it in line with how it is now.

Meanwhile, if you drag yourself away from the Way of the Pot entirely you might stumble on other ways of getting around it. Pots are far from the only manner of healing in the world.

[Mr. O'Dearly]

Find yourself a cleric with healing domain.
That will solve this problem and save you a load of cash.
I know of at least two.

[Aarkon Draco]

you neglect to concider the players who like to solo like myself and being a person who doesent like clerics much hinders leveling even more.

i dont recall a single complaint about potions or how they work. as manny DMs and Devs like to say if it aint broke dont fix it.

if the penalty is going to remain at 50% then the cost of potions should be lesseded and players on their own leveling should get some perk because youve made it so much harder to do so.

also on reflections we have a small player base so getting a party together is hard enough and now its a nessesity in the higher levels 15+

forcing players to have a group is rediculess for planes ect you need a group granted because they are EPIC areas but now you need a group all the time just dont seem right to me. not everyone likes having a party this is a PvP / action server not a party / group server.

as for kits they are no substitute for a pot even for a pure ftr or barbar with all the healing skill feats your still gonna max out at 43 base +3 skill foc +10 epic skill foc + pure class 280 = 336 +1d20 wich is a good ammount but when your lvl 40 barbar has near 1000 hp its not as good as chuggin 2 heals

also with kits is the weight factor potions are lighter i know all the dex toons are gonna love lugging 50+ pounds of kits around


i still say 50% is far too steep 35% max is decent enough perhaps that floor and a 15% chance of poision of ( now adjusted) 3 con on a failed roll if chugging.

the whole thing is a bad idea IMO youll have to do alot of mob changes to compinsate for this new effect why make that much work when it was just fine as it was?

i have been on this server for 2 years now and ive had little complaints about adjustments or rules but this one is realy off and i think youll hear alot more players chime in on this new "feature"

[Wolfarus]

Being able to heal up to full health in any area's below ice trolls may be cheesy, but consider the epic area's (epic zons on up, or the first area of ice giants)

The monsters dont politely attack you 1 or 2 at a time. They rush you in groups (hence the term "mob" came into being). Forcing players to group together with a cleric or druid (if one is even AVAILBALE to hunt in the area you're currently hunting in) just to survive the higher area's is a bad idea. It'll lead to resentment from allot of the players, who will probably feel like you are "forcing" them to party up to survive.

Even with the pot situation as it was, just because you had 6 pages full of pots didnt mean you'd walk away from any one area. It DOES take skill to build a character who can solo (or even semi-solo) most, if not all, the epic area's and this should be rewarded, not punished.

And lets face it, now that you've basicly made 90% of the server even MORE vulnerable to crit. hits, pm's will become even more popular then ever before.

(and if this is going to stay in place, despite what i predict will be a mostly player-rejected idea, the prices need to be adjusted to fit the new reality of healing. Full heals should be knocked down to 1400gp's, cure crits adjusted accordingly, and so on and so forth)

Ps : Lets look at the alternate ways of self-healing w/o having a cleric or druid around.

1. Kits (as stated above, you'd have to uber-max your healing skill, plus be a pure barb or ftr for them to be a reasonable substitution for pots. Plus there's the added weight of kits vs pots, as also stated above.

2. Rings of health / crystal (i think) amulet. Rings can give you a full crit. pot worth (150 hps) twice. Wearing 2 of them gives you 600 worth of healing in battle before having to use a pot. ammy is healing cirlce 1 / day. Both dont help that much if you're in epic zons or above, with a group of 6+ mobs around you.

3. Scrolls. I havnt investigated this one properly yet, so im not sure if anybody can use any rank of heal scrolls, or if it takes umd ability to use the "heal" scroll. While this may give crafter-clerics something to do now, scrolls take too long to use. Easily the time diff between life and death.

4. Get a druid / cleric in your party. As stated above, this isnt always an option, depending on the time of day it is, which server you're on, and which area you are hunting in.


None of these are productive for players who solo, or even IN a small group (2-3 people). Lets say you have the extrodinairy luck to have a full blown healer cleric / druid in your party, and you're in a large group-spawn area (epic zons). IF said caster lives long enough to keep the other 2 alive, youl'l still run out fo spells / pots before you run out of enemies. Then what? run away to rest / reset, and loose any drop piles you've earned?

Lets face it, the epic area's, ESPECIALLY the epic planes, wouldnt be practical by anything but a full blown party (5-8 members) with at least 2 fully dedicated healers. And again, this comes back to the "we're going to force you to party up if you want to play in these area's" thing, and thats no bueno, hombre's..

[Amoenotep]

just be glad they didn't go with my idea...hardcore potion rules, you start chugging potions and something bad starts to happen...that leads eventually to instant death.


this mod was created as 2 things at once. PvP between all the factions and major co operation inside each faction.

if you look at the difficulty of the mobs, even from the time you start, this mod is meant to have you lvl in groups...the best groups are from you own faction. there used to be bonus xp for being in a group of the same lvl.

bottom line is this wasn't implemeted to force anyone to do anything that wasn't already there. it was implemented to reflect the fact that you can't keep downing liquid of any kind without something bad happening. you drink too much water and it kills you, you drink too many magical concoctions and they become less effective.....like i said, be glad they didn't go for my idea.

[Aarkon Draco]

i understand the idea behind this but 50% is too much 35% is still a good enough dent.

there are times ( quite often on my scedual) were im the ONLY player on what am i supposed to do then? as i write this we have a whopping 4 players on reflections one is lvl 34 im leveling a monk whos 15th and thers another whos lvl 5 and one whos lvl 19 hows that going to make a effctive party?

the higer planes need a party of 4 or 5 but now youll need 7 or 8

this is a bad implimentation it needs tweaking immeadtly

[Binkyuk]

i dont recall a single complaint about potions or how they work. as manny DMs and Devs like to say if it aint broke dont fix it.

Well exactly, pots are great, brilliant, faaaantastic. I'm sure the monsters would be up in arms if only Zing had thought to code a 'frustration' routine.

getting a party together is hard enough and now its a nessesity in the higher levels 15+

This seems a bit of an exaggeration to me. A big heal pot even at 50% effectiveness is more than good enough until at least level 20.

forcing players to have a group is ridiculous

No one is being forced to have a group. Pre-planar you just have to fight mob encounters that you can down in 2-3 pot chugs. As you say you needed a group before for the planes unless you were nuts, so that hasn't changed.

Being able to heal up to full health in any area's below ice trolls may be cheesy, but consider the epic area's (epic zons on up, or the first area of ice giants)

Yeah it did occur to me that inner Ice Giant areas will be crazy harder now because it's near impossible to pull them. But try pulling a bit more carefully. Many players like to rush into a big group of 5+ and rock their world because they know they can. It's almost always *possible* to pull smaller numbers. If a group is 6+ and inseparable, then maybe it's just too big. Even now, killing 2-3 pre-amazons mobs your level should be quite possible.

All views appreciated of course.

[Blystos Re]

I, for one, don't mind too much.

Scorpio and I made it through Plane of Earth last night clear to to the boss, and at that point there were just too many helpers crowded around him for the two of us to take out, pots or no. We still came out ahead in xp and I didn't blow through 20 full pots.

Yes, I play a cleric, but honestly, we didn't have to heal that often. When we did, I would usually cast Heal, or each of us might use one pot every 3-4 mobs if things got nuts.

It gives support clerics something to do, and I actually already had one planned out, just really didn't have a need for it. It also makes more sense than just being able to quaff and quaff without having to take a pee break.

Thanks for your hard work Binkyuk.

[-BannyD-]

-15% to a max of 50%...someone played Guild Wars. (however unlike guild wars, there doesnt seem to be a way to regenerate that penalty or even get a bonus)

However, I still think this is a bit dramatic. Perhaps -15% effectiveness if you "chug". Drinking one every minute shouldnt have the same penalty as, say, drinking one every round.

I havent been in game since this was implemented to test it, but I have a feeling I'm not going to like it. Everyone complains how PMs chug pots in PvP, but this nerf only makes them more powerful. It is safe to say that any PM takes significantly less damage from whatever due to their immunities. Therefore, the rest of the communitiy suffers as they generally have to heal more.

MA is now more powerful than ever because of this.



On the distant plus side....I'm glad my pure barb has heal kits.

[-BannyD-]

as for kits they are no substitute for a pot even for a pure ftr or barbar with all the healing skill feats your still gonna max out at 43 base +3 skill foc +10 epic skill foc + pure class 280 = 336 +1d20 wich is a good ammount but when your lvl 40 barbar has near 1000 hp its not as good as chuggin 2 heals

actually this is wrong. no skill on any toon can be higher than 127, its just the bioware max for any stat. and on top of that, you cannot buff a skill more than 50 points. so really the +7to heal per lvl from pure barb only gives you +50max. this still means your heal at lvl 40 will only be ~95 without feats invested. i am unsure if a +12heal kit vs a +0heal kit will make a difference here as I do not know if that +12 contributes to the 50point max skill buff. Im assuming it does not add.

so really, a pure fighter or barb decked out in heal skill will only get 43 +wis bonus +3skill focus +10epic focus +50 pure class...or ~110 +1d20 per heal kit...pretty crappy compared to an actual pot.

*edit* i wish you're calculation was correct, though. a 300+1d20 heal kit is better than the 10k pots. you can still use 2heal kits per round, same amount as pots, but you end up avoiding attacks of opportunity, healing more, ability to use your skill on party members, and healing for much much cheaper...