Druid Elemental Form

[Lokey]

Suggestions for balance before Nerfageddon go here.

Easiest solution is just to make the elder forms pure druid only.

If anyone can come up with something not too arduous to code and test, we'll consider it. Between what you can do with greater elemental form in AO, RK, TC or LA ( ), something being decent for pure druid and not breakable with 14 levels of other classes doesn't seem possible with the amount of building/testing Linux is willing to put into this.

[Nyeleni]

I'd agree with pure druid. At least that would give them a reason to build one.
Are the elder forms too good? Might be that they are when druids are able to get them. Maybe scale them like the dragon form? At lvl35 you get the actual elder elementar, or even at lvl40.

@psibertiger14: It really gets a bit old if we bring the "have-to-know-how-to-build" every time into play too. Of course they are beatable, but it limits the kind of characters which are able to do it too. Which means, variety will suffer.

[Cluster]

I look forward to reading your mind too sometime...

That would be a mistake, trust me

Psst: If we wanted we could make unbeatable builds hun just to let you know.

Well of course, you tag it Invulnerable...

As for the druid nerfing, it would be nice to see a solution that doesn't create a bunch of snacks for the devil angel. Forcing elder elemental shape to be exclusive to pure druids is going to do just that. If some of the stats are 'overpowered', then why not just tone it down a notch? If some abilities are boosted too far when you start include feats and cross class abilities, then knock them back a touch. Any solution is better than the one that completely ruins a bunch of characters.

I really don't see how they are so difficult to beat for some people. There are a couple of really big weaknesses in them already. Like psiber said, you simply have to know how to build toons to understand their weaknesses. If you don't, then you won't.

@crazy
Sure, let's remove all classes except fighters, give them +2 long swords and give everyone slashing armor and shields while we're at it...

@Nyeleni
Restricting them to pure druids will hurt variety alot more. There is (and should) always be a limit to the number of builds that can beat some build. If all players could beat some build, then nobody would play it, which also removes more variety.

Basically, if the stats need to be knocked down a rung or two, thats fine. If the dex is too high, lower it some (just try and remember the reflex save!). Preventing cross class prevents alot of builds from being made. It doesn't balance anything, it just removes them from the picture. Which leads people off to find some other way to exploit a class combo.

With regards to your original comment Lokey about coming up with a decent solution for both pure druids and multi-class 26/- builds, I know those with a few of the ele builds, and will work through the builds to see what can be changed without completely breaking the builds. There will in all likelihood be rebuilds from the changes, but just off the top of my head i have a couple of ideas I'd like to work out before something so drastic as restricting them to pure druids only is put into place. I'm guessing by your post that nothing concrete has been worked out yet. I'll reply back once I have some more info.

[Nyeleni]

The other druids would still get the lower elder and the former forms until lvl20 druids. I guess I should have written it more clearly. But it would be nice if pure druids would get something more powerful than the other versions.

[Korr]

Yeah, Kim brings undisarmable toons to fights with both of my disarmers logged on ';P You still owe me a few death bows from that day!

Anywho, here are my ideas and thoughts about the elemental builds (and Vinden may die alot but my druid/sd doesnt!)

Weapons: Air and Fire elementals are prime choices because their weapons grants 2d6 elemental damage, water and earth are blud damage that gets overwritten in use. Either way the dice damage is that of an AMAZING weapon in itself (even though it has no bonuses) its a form you can take an Imbued Adamantite weapon thats plain +6 and make it viable, let alone if you are holding a black sword! Stream line this to that of a level 20 weapon with other bonuses already (Because you keep weapon bonuses while shifted) so lets say 1d6, maybe even just 1d4 of specific elemental damage (air - elec, fire - fire, earth - acid, water - cold). That would help bring the power level down without crippling multiple builds on the server. The base weapon itself is good for air. . . the light hammer is low damage and low crits. Fire is pretty set with a short sword, decent damage (finesse) good crit range. Water elemental has a solid weapon with the morning star, two damage types are really nice. The earth elemental using a light hammer (while cool for light hammer builds to swap to earth from air when nothing hits you anyway. . . more damage!) needs a more solid weapon. I say since the water is a rounded toon and the fire and air and earth are part of that, give earth a weapon that HURTS. No other elemental has slashing damage (pierce, bludg, and bludg/pierce) Lets give him a greatsword, good damage and some nice crits coming out. A greatsword might be a little over the top, for backup ideas I would say [censored] sword for 1 handed or heavy flail for a 2 hander. Please try to ensure that the full 1.5 str is applied if you do a two-hander I dont think it would be a problem but the kobold doesnt get 1.5 str for using a scythe.

Skin: Again air and fire have great extra on the skin. Air and Fire I think get improved evasion. . . that can go easily enough the dex makes up the reflex saves. Air and fire both have 100% immunities (fire also has a 100% vuln to cold). Water gets a measley 5/- acid & fire, Earth gets 25% fire. Instead of all that, do what you would do for a subrace or something. . . maybe set a % to specific element (and same vuln to opposite) 25%, 20% something. Air would get +25% elec -25% acid. Fire: +25% fire -25% cold. Water: +25% cold -25% fire. Earth: +25% acid -25% elec. This would make things more even and not overwhelming to battle (also open up options for 2 druids fighting each other). The skins also have 5/+5 DR. . . drop this, a level 20 toon cant get but a +4 weapon anyway.

Stats: Earth elemental is about 20-25 on the list of highest strengths (lots of doubles in there with dragons and male/female shifter). Air elemental is tied for first place on highest dex of shifted forms. Fire is ranked about 5 below there. I would suggest a median between these (gonna list stats now):
Type - Str - Con - Dex - Total
E - 34 - 26 - 15 - 75
A - 15 - 22 - 43 - 80
F - 25 - 18 - 37 - 80
W - 28 - 23 - 31 - 72
The pattern there looks to be Earth is strong, and not brittle, but clumsy. Air is nimble and hearty, yet gentle. Fire is quick and strong, but weightless. Water is not strong, not solid, not quick. . . yet not weak, nor dismissable, or slow! I would propose a better balance in the highs-and lows.
Type - Str - Con - Dex - Total
E - 34 - 24- 18 - 76
A - 18 - 20- 38 - 76
F - 24 - 18 - 34 - 76
W - 30 - 22 - 24 - 76
This set up would create versitility between the builds yet not over-power and one or two while crippling the others. Even additions across the board (maybe even tone down some of the stats all by 2-4). Keeping stats at even numbers doesnt give a synthetic reward. . . to explain : The way I think when making a toon is to stop at even numbers, thats when modifiers go up, so giving the air elemental 43 dex means they get to lax on needing "good" rolls on cats grace as well as wearing +7 boots is more like having a +8 to dex. For me that was an imporant boost for over-all power without trying too hard.

Pure : To give a bonus for people who take more druid levels and less other classes. . . level 26 a druid gets infinite shifts. Add a bonus there to give 1-2 to all/some/one stats (maybe even lower the original stats JUST for this) so that they get to use their flexibility a little better (like memorizing 2-4 stat spells for good rolls). For an added bonus make it so at level 36 (so pure only, but not a 40 bonus) a druid has access to a "quasi" elemental. This quasi elemental would take all 4 elemental forms and drop it into one being. The Quasi elemental should be something special, for weapon I would say downgrade the die type by 1 and give all 4 elements. . . acid/cold/elec/fire. Weapon type is a hard choice. . . a scythe seems to come to mind for that one. The idea behind scythe is the slash/pierce like water is bludg/pierce, but earth is slashing (for the heavier damages), when all 4 elements really "click" inside the result is devastating (ie: crits hurt). For the skin, you want something that reflects all the elements. . . yet both sides. 15% vulnerability to each fire/cold/acid/elec, but give also 15/- resistance to each. . . this would ensure weak attacks dont break through, but strong elemental attacks would be on average (a part of him is hurt, but not all type of thing) and HUGE elemental attacks would do extra damage (breaks the link of the elements). DR should be a definent here. . . 10/+7 or so. This would ward off average joe, yet the seasoned adventurer would get hits in easily enough. Maybe make it 15/+6 for the same effect, but let the IA weapons be able to break through (easy enough to get for everyone). Here I think is where you would want something like improved evasion, a good discipline boost, and maybe something like knockdown or some other combatant ability. Stats would pull a bit trickier. . . it needs to be better but not insane.
Type - Str - Con - Dex - Total
Q - 37 - 23 - 27 - 87
That would net a +11 increase for a pure boost. . . as well it gives that "easy max" of the stats.


Ok well theres my entire breakdown of how I think the elemtals could be better balanced YET current builds not being crippled (some might even get bonuses)! Lets see where that starts us. . . we can hope its not the flame road!!!

[Shhhhhhh]

I think its difficult to give those pure caster druids or almost pure druids a good shape to shift into when they need some protection or are out of spells while still not making it too strong for the kind of builds that focus purely on the shape. Since you can get so many things extra by adding in some other classes.
Restricting them or giving them tiers are some obvious solutions i guess, but you could also try to change the shape a bit so it works the same for the intended builds but doesnt work as good for the other builds.

For example to get a decent AC and AB the air elemental gets quite a high dex, but the unintended sideeffect is a much higher reflex save and a very high bonus to the dex skills.
Something similar happend earlier to the Construct shapes and they got reduced reflex saves in that shape to make up for it. So why not add reduced hide and move silent skills to the elemental shapes with high dex? Just -10 or -15 to make up for their higher dex. It would still be possible to make builds with SD added in, but they wouldnt have crazy high ms/hide anymore because of their dex. And the normal druid characters wouldn't be effected.
Another thing would be adding in some weakness to the build, a vulnerability to some damage type, which goes away at 30 druid lvls or 35. It again would not make any of the current builds unplayable, but does make them a bit more acceptable, and would also mean the druid casters are uneffected.

I ofcourse also love Korr's idea of the quasi elemental

[Cijah]

I am not too familiar with all the elemental forms but rather than restricting minor classes or making them pure could they receive vulnerabilities (if they don't already exist) or beef up their vulnerabilities as was done to PMs - people still play these!

For example Earth Elementals being vulnerable to bludge wpns or fire elementals being vulnerable to cold and water to fire etc.

I would think that would be an easier change than retrofitting or scrapping the toons themselves by making them unplayable??

[Daltian]

I was tempted to build a variety od elemental form builds. Druid/rogue/wm, druid.sd/random.. divine might/shield ones but as it all seamed too good to be true I resisted temtation. Same as shifter builds become obsolete with even a minor change, its bound to happen to elemental builds. After all they are way to much dependent on slight changes. And for you guys that built them, enjoy them while you can and get ready to build something else.

Just to explain why this change is needed. If you take undead form druid/shifter, which needs to have only druid and shifter levels and find out that if you shift to elemental form which you get by default, you actually are stronger then undead form. And you get to mix in other prcs and normal clases in it. It cant be right.

[burrahobbit]

Interesting stuff so far.

Nyeleni: I am guessing you don't like the "have-to-know-how-to-build" thing brought up because you still haven't figured out how to build, as evidenced by your current toons

Since you know so much about building:

I'll thunderdome anything you got anytime, in fact, lets run through all your builds, i have an extra 4 1/2 minutes to see you deleted completely off the server.

What does attacking Nyeleni have to do with anything?

[cRaZy8or5e]

Honestly only a few of the elementals on the server are good in the first place. Sounds more like some people have a problem with a few specific toons. I die all the time on Vinden. You just have to know how to take him apart. Doesn't really matter what I say, the DM's are determined to nerf the elemenals after they had their butts handed to them by PWnD the other night. You can nerf the builds, but you can't nerf the players. We will just build something else to kill everyone and that will get nerfed. The circle of life continues.

We've traded deaths quite often, so you should know better than to say that. I'm not talking about specific builds, though yours is pretty cool. What I am talking about is the over the top stats.

Here I'll say it again, 43 starting dex is one dex point shy of 20 base dexterity +10 dex through level-up + 10 Greater Dex feats +4 book = 44 dexterity. Not to mention this same toon gets 15 strength, 22 constitution, THEN whatever wisdom, charisma, or intelligence you invested. You don't have to invest anything in strength or dexterity (IF you plan on using only this shape), and suddenly you've got a juggernaut of a toon, for free. This shape makes the undead shapes and dragon form look like an incredible waste of time. Throw in the fact that their are no limitations on what you can take with the air elemental form, ie *cough* *cough* Waffles *cough* and you effectively have a shadow dancing PM with none of the PM vulnerabilities, AND monk speed, AND epic dodge.

So tell me that's not overpowered.

Or even in your case, a PM with weaponmaster levels. It's just not right .

Just cuz we have found ways to kill you guys, doesn't mean that the builds aren't overpowered, it just means, we're that good.

Good case in point, what ?two? nights ago now, there was a big scrum in the dark forest. It was a lot of fun. Menelandro, Huckleberry, and Netyanis, against a bevy of RK/AO folks, and ?3? LAers? The DM's didn't get their butts handed to them by Waffles. At the end of the night it was the three TC/NC toons standing in the forest and everyone else was dead. It just took some doing.

Everyone getting their teeth kicked in, and Waffles died? once? Over a three hour period, and not cuz he was hiding the whole time or we couldn't see him, we could, we just couldn't do enough damage to take him down, before he hammered us. Not to mention the size modifiers to disarm and KD that they get. A shadow dancing, epic dodge, PM is knocking down my 85 disc cleric monk. Now when a pure fighter or a dragon kd's my high disc toons, then I go, sure makes sense to me. But when a shadow dancer does it, it just seems to me that somethings wrong.

I really like Korr's idea too, the stats just need to be toned down quite a bit I think on all of them, you need to look at the final stats on a regular character t 40 and then tweek elemental shapes according to that. It would be one thing if these shapes didn't have gear merging with them, but gear does merge, making the base stats misleading. The stats for the Huge form should be the Elder stats in my opinion and make new lower stats for the huge forms. You shouldn't get a monster of a form like this unles you have to invest a lot of levels (not just 20) some ability points and a feat. These forms make the undead forms and druid dragons look like a waste of time.

[Cahaal]

Here is a thought I brought up a long time ago:

Go ahead and restrict the elder elementals to pure druids and those Elemental Genasi races for that element. So you could make an air elder elemental but it has to be Air Genasi if you want anything other than a pure druid. This would be due to the shape awakening the half elemental blood in them. Everyone one else just gets the regular elemental.

[Nyeleni]

I too like Korr's numbers. Looks very balanced and wouldn't wreak havoc on the existing builds. Cause if you were able to come up with that über build in the first place, you will be able to adjust and find something that suits you with the new situation. At least I hope so. Changes are always difficult.



@psibertiger: I'm really sorry I can't build good enough to kill two or three at once of you. I really am... I will admit I hardly innovate any builds, because I don't get time to spend on the drawing and testing board. But I enjoy the game even if it means I get killed a lot.
What I understand however is that building and therefore looking for the best builds available is all an art in itself. And I salute the brave who find those nifty combinations.
However there are limits too. One build shouldn't dominate others even if you build with a more mediocre method (like me) and therefore will loose more than win. I think some builds are just too good. And then it's time to go over the books again and adjust the parameters.

[Tal]

Here is a thought I brought up a long time ago:

Go ahead and restrict the elder elementals to pure druids and those Elemental Genasi races for that element. So you could make an air elder elemental but it has to be Air Genasi if you want anything other than a pure druid. This would be due to the shape awakening the half elemental blood in them. Everyone one else just gets the regular elemental.

That's not a bad idea imo. I think the main idea here is to avoid the builds that basically make toons that are similar to PM/WM and PM/SD and whatever else can be made to create non crittable, non sneakable, good ab and ac, and basically immune to everything builds. Are they beatable? Sure they are. But so were PM's before they were brought down a notch, and PM's could not even come close to the capabilities of the elemental builds that are around now.

[MLoki]

The only problem I see with reducing the stats to that of a regular 40th level character is that normally during character creation you suffer some limitation for having a dump stat. This is not the case for shifters. If you know what form you are planning on using then you can use the adjusted stats as your dump stats and pump all the rest. If only Pure Druids get the current stats or something close to them and other "mixed druids" get modified stats this will have to be taken into account. Also, I have heard that shifted forms get double the dodge bonus from merged boots so this may be a large part of the problem as well.

as an FYI... I too resisted the urge to build a broken Elemental or RDD Dragon since after seeing them they really were too good to be true and knew that eventually they would become a mere shadow of thier former self. With all the Druids and RDD Dragons that were being made it was inevitable that these builds would have to be worked on. Thanks has to be given to the Dev team for noticing this issue and taking care of them as they come up.

[Lokey]

yay feedback! Possibly constructive comments later.