I must admit that in general, I am disappointed in fighter's (barb's, ranger's) proneness to spells. The CoT is a good way to ameliorate this problem, except that it is restricted to NC faction and takes up the 1 and only PrC slot that you are allowed. Fighter/CoT builds can get good saves and don't give up anything as a fighter (except a PrC slot).
True, a straight fighter has a difficult time getting good saves. The save feats and spellcraft do help, but even then the will and reflex saves (for non-dex types) are rough.
One of my experimental fighter builds (built for good saves) takes monk levels. In my build, I take 6 monk levels. This gives a nice boost to saves (and still mind), evasion, and extra skills including tumble. Additionally, even though I lose fighter bonus feats, I get cleave, KD, and IKD for free to make up for it. Basically, I lose some HP and 2 points of AB. Not a bad trade IMHO.
Unnerf Wiz and Sorc, at least partially!
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Hieroneus Maxim
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AndrewCarr
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vs spells my ranger does decently. Fort and dex saves are high(low 20's base) and will is at a crappy 13 base. But, i'm pretty much immune to elemental dmg(protection from elements and reflext saves. rogue lvls would help this even more) and most death spells don't hurt too bad now. Later, when i get the chance, i'd like to take the +4 will save feat, and get a better +wis amulet.
Lindon Erithar
and
Quickie Mart the <a href='http://www.cultofokie.com'>Okie Ambassador</a>
and
Quickie Mart the <a href='http://www.cultofokie.com'>Okie Ambassador</a>
Still though, i have no clue with wiz's and sorc's mainly because I don't play things with next to no life Played a bit more... have to admit, my tactics changed a lot when I got those level 9 spells...
The balance issues I saw at levels 10-15 have pretty much disappeared, mainly because I use IGMS for massive damage. The summons are out for interference, I have forceful hand and FoD for things that get past them, and IGMS takes care of everything else. If it is nerfed, though, I don't know what I would do. Horrid Wilting does about 50 damage - pathetic, and utterly worthless for fighting town guards, who always save, and anything else is even worse(EVERYTHING resists fire, it seems). In PvP, I admit, it is pretty powerful... but without it, an arcane caster could not compete at all in PvM.
To the person who said that a non okie could get a save "way" above 30: Do some research before you make such sweeping claims, you miss the point completely.
The maximum FoD DC I could see anyone getting at level 25 is such:
10+9 (29 int/cha(23 + +6 item)) + 2(Necro focus) +4 (great necro focus) +6 epic necro focus = 31 . Respectable? Yes. Invincible? By no means, as proved elsewhere on this post and on this board. Much of the time it will fail, and if a fighter gets close, it's pretty much over, especially because you can't take that powergaming level of pally anymore without taking 4 more after.
The simple fact is that except for IGMS, you have made arcane casters weaker than corresponding (intelligently made! only an idiot would play a pure fighter or barbarian!) cleric and melee builds, due to high resistances and saves. Then, for some reason, you make IGMS incredibly powerful, powerful enough to make up for all the other shortcomings, and make casters far from useless. Combined with the utility of haste and invisibility spells, casters are, and have been, a good class to play, again not useless at all. But the complaints and cries for nerfs from non caster players annoy me greatly, and without someone dissenting, soon you will nerf casters even more. Play a mage before you assert that "mages are plenty powerful." You will have to deal with:
-Guards(best xp monster 18+) that ALWAYS resist WoB/FoD
/bigbys
-buffs that only +5 weapons can penetrate... for 10/level damage, then they go away. This takes a good melee build about 3 rounds, which is no problem when knockdown works immediately, and NPC guards go through it in 5.
- Disabling spells that work half the time(again, when they don't save)
- Any damage spell other than IGMS being almost useless (The NPCs always either save or resist)
So, leave the nerfs, at least some of them. But don't nerf any more, it's hard to play right now.
The balance issues I saw at levels 10-15 have pretty much disappeared, mainly because I use IGMS for massive damage. The summons are out for interference, I have forceful hand and FoD for things that get past them, and IGMS takes care of everything else. If it is nerfed, though, I don't know what I would do. Horrid Wilting does about 50 damage - pathetic, and utterly worthless for fighting town guards, who always save, and anything else is even worse(EVERYTHING resists fire, it seems). In PvP, I admit, it is pretty powerful... but without it, an arcane caster could not compete at all in PvM.
To the person who said that a non okie could get a save "way" above 30: Do some research before you make such sweeping claims, you miss the point completely.
The maximum FoD DC I could see anyone getting at level 25 is such:
10+9 (29 int/cha(23 + +6 item)) + 2(Necro focus) +4 (great necro focus) +6 epic necro focus = 31 . Respectable? Yes. Invincible? By no means, as proved elsewhere on this post and on this board. Much of the time it will fail, and if a fighter gets close, it's pretty much over, especially because you can't take that powergaming level of pally anymore without taking 4 more after.
The simple fact is that except for IGMS, you have made arcane casters weaker than corresponding (intelligently made! only an idiot would play a pure fighter or barbarian!) cleric and melee builds, due to high resistances and saves. Then, for some reason, you make IGMS incredibly powerful, powerful enough to make up for all the other shortcomings, and make casters far from useless. Combined with the utility of haste and invisibility spells, casters are, and have been, a good class to play, again not useless at all. But the complaints and cries for nerfs from non caster players annoy me greatly, and without someone dissenting, soon you will nerf casters even more. Play a mage before you assert that "mages are plenty powerful." You will have to deal with:
-Guards(best xp monster 18+) that ALWAYS resist WoB/FoD
/bigbys
-buffs that only +5 weapons can penetrate... for 10/level damage, then they go away. This takes a good melee build about 3 rounds, which is no problem when knockdown works immediately, and NPC guards go through it in 5.
- Disabling spells that work half the time(again, when they don't save)
- Any damage spell other than IGMS being almost useless (The NPCs always either save or resist)
So, leave the nerfs, at least some of them. But don't nerf any more, it's hard to play right now.
wtf, you're telling me to play a mage? lol, why do you think i say they're plenty powerful? because i play one as my main, duh!
it's not hard to play a mage, tricky yes, but not hard. stop bsing.
my wail is currently 35 with maxed fox cunning.
and that's at lvl 22.
igms is the backbone of the mage, always has been since SoU came out. why? because every freaking pvp melee build has evasion. which makes all evoc spells useless except for igms. (that's why magic immunity stuff makes no sense.)
however, thanks to the devs, enchantment spells have made a huge comeback. extended hold person is nice against a fighter type (they always have low will). summons are pretty powerful (black blade of disaster is boarding on an exploit).
overall, i'd say the mage is coming along pretty well, still needs a few tweaks here and there (no clue what the epic spells are like now. i'd also like to see mages get a higher dc check vs dispel since they're the most spell dependant class).
^^ the above is all based on 1-20 as a wizard. epic lvls pose a whole new set of problems for mages. Death magic will likely be phased out by around lvl 30, leaving igms as the only option + buffs. uncapping some of the higher lvl evoc spells would be nice, as well as making some unevadeable (like the lvl 9 meteor)
the problem class now though, is the goddamn clerics.
highest death magic in the game, highest ab, highest ac. they can do everything, and they can do it better than anyone else heh.
i think the nerf bat is headed their way
but i'd hate to see clerics regulated to what they are in every other game: just healers. hope the bat doesn't hit them too hard
it's not hard to play a mage, tricky yes, but not hard. stop bsing.
my wail is currently 35 with maxed fox cunning.
and that's at lvl 22.
igms is the backbone of the mage, always has been since SoU came out. why? because every freaking pvp melee build has evasion. which makes all evoc spells useless except for igms. (that's why magic immunity stuff makes no sense.)
however, thanks to the devs, enchantment spells have made a huge comeback. extended hold person is nice against a fighter type (they always have low will). summons are pretty powerful (black blade of disaster is boarding on an exploit).
overall, i'd say the mage is coming along pretty well, still needs a few tweaks here and there (no clue what the epic spells are like now. i'd also like to see mages get a higher dc check vs dispel since they're the most spell dependant class).
^^ the above is all based on 1-20 as a wizard. epic lvls pose a whole new set of problems for mages. Death magic will likely be phased out by around lvl 30, leaving igms as the only option + buffs. uncapping some of the higher lvl evoc spells would be nice, as well as making some unevadeable (like the lvl 9 meteor)
the problem class now though, is the goddamn clerics.
highest death magic in the game, highest ab, highest ac. they can do everything, and they can do it better than anyone else heh.
i think the nerf bat is headed their way
but i'd hate to see clerics regulated to what they are in every other game: just healers. hope the bat doesn't hit them too hard In EVERY version of DnD and NWN Clerics have been the most powerful because they are the ultimate versatile character...however, they aren't impossible...throw a Mord's disjunt at them...watch their abilities fail. Most clerics also don't have a high discipline, which means Knockdown (or IKD city) And... of course, you can always hit their reflex saves..which ALWAYS suck. In the same way that Clerics can do everything that the other chars can, they also have Tremendous disadvanatages. Almost all their benefits are through buffs, meaning Mord's takes them down fast. They don't have good reflexes, meaning they can't hide well, meaning Rogues SA them faster than lightning, Fighters can IKD them because clerics don't have discipline as a class feat. Hit them with Vine mine, and I'm pretty sure they stay there for a while. Call lightning...wham they are done. HIt them with IGMS they are in trouble.
I think most the spells willa ctually be unnerfed towards the end of the beta... why? Because although these balances are really good for lvls 1-20, they simply aren't applicable at lvl 21-40. For the same reasons you have said dond, as players hit the higher lvls, the spells simply can be saved by anyone because ALL saves are high at those lvls (i mean they aren't monumentally high for all saves, but they are still high). DC 24 won't mean anything against a lvl 28 anything because the char will have the ability to save with a 4.
For those reasons alone i see unnerfing in the future. Althought he dev's have done a good job at balancing things out...we have to admit to ourselves...when chars hit the epic lvls, the server changes to a high magic power server...meaning that magic will have to be powerful in order to survive...items will have to be epic to survive.
As for teh problems with sorcs/wizards.... I feel bad for them because their spellshave been so jacked up. I think for the most part the spells should be unnerfed, but as more play testing happens, I think the dev's will see that a lvl 23 sorc fighting some CR 18 gnolls shouldn't be having a tough time the second IGMS runs out. The game will have to be tweaked for epic level chars...my guess is that these tweaks will have to happen at epic lvl.
What I would like to see? A script to have the nerfs as they are now from lvl 1-20. Then at lvl 21 you have to do a quest, that on completion symbolizes the rise of a character to epic status, unnerfing the spells and making them more powerful through an item at completion (or something that can't be stolen so that rogues can't steal the epicness of a char). Think what that would do to add to the server's story line? Especially considering that epic chars are supposed to be ascended chars anyways (epic handbook).
Man....I think later tonight the EPIC QUEST idea will be put onto another forum topic, because that, could really be the solution to these problems.
I think most the spells willa ctually be unnerfed towards the end of the beta... why? Because although these balances are really good for lvls 1-20, they simply aren't applicable at lvl 21-40. For the same reasons you have said dond, as players hit the higher lvls, the spells simply can be saved by anyone because ALL saves are high at those lvls (i mean they aren't monumentally high for all saves, but they are still high). DC 24 won't mean anything against a lvl 28 anything because the char will have the ability to save with a 4.
For those reasons alone i see unnerfing in the future. Althought he dev's have done a good job at balancing things out...we have to admit to ourselves...when chars hit the epic lvls, the server changes to a high magic power server...meaning that magic will have to be powerful in order to survive...items will have to be epic to survive.
As for teh problems with sorcs/wizards.... I feel bad for them because their spellshave been so jacked up. I think for the most part the spells should be unnerfed, but as more play testing happens, I think the dev's will see that a lvl 23 sorc fighting some CR 18 gnolls shouldn't be having a tough time the second IGMS runs out. The game will have to be tweaked for epic level chars...my guess is that these tweaks will have to happen at epic lvl.
What I would like to see? A script to have the nerfs as they are now from lvl 1-20. Then at lvl 21 you have to do a quest, that on completion symbolizes the rise of a character to epic status, unnerfing the spells and making them more powerful through an item at completion (or something that can't be stolen so that rogues can't steal the epicness of a char). Think what that would do to add to the server's story line? Especially considering that epic chars are supposed to be ascended chars anyways (epic handbook).
Man....I think later tonight the EPIC QUEST idea will be put onto another forum topic, because that, could really be the solution to these problems.
I've tried fire, i've tried faith, and i've tried force, all I have left is hope.
Maxxed fox's cunning, I'm an idiot for not thinking of that! Hmmm, I'll have to see how I do against the guards with a few strategy tweaks... I'm taking a play break until more content is added though, as you can only kill so many guards before it starts to get boring, and gnolls tend to be overcamped.