Plz Fix the unbalanced nature of NS4

[Terminal Insanity]

Look i been playing on here for a while under a few usernames and the 1 thing i notice the most is this - There is virtually no balance here!

This server is so biased to wizards it is not even funny anymore. I mean really comapre a high lvl wiz with a high lvl fighter or ranger etc its crap. The most important things the devs can do here is get the devastating critical working here bloody hell just look around where are all the fighters on this server there are none compared to the number of wizards and why ill tell you why bigby's and wail vs ice giants 10 of em even - try that with the same lvl ranger and u get hammered in 2 rounds! + no animal companion for the ranger or druid. I know devs are working hard but seriously this server has nerfed many many things. You have nerfed dragon shape cause it was unstoppable, lots of the cities guards now repeatedly cast freedom of movement so there goes stonehold basically for the druid (Druid is now nerfed) I realise u made several minor changes to certain wiz spells like issacs, but what are u doing for the straight fighter or ranger?? the only time i see a ranger is with rogue and or SD. Straight fighter lol never. Straight fighters need devestating crit I mean its kind of a pinacle of fighterdom the Wiz has his wail, bigby's and issacs what does the straight fighter have ??? i tell you he should have devestating crit. I mean im not even talking about PvP here im talking about and you all know its true the time it takes to lvl a char is ridiculous if you are a fighter or ranger! take the correct feats and a wiz is wailing rooms full of xp rich ice giants etc and flying through the lvls try it some time with slash/pierc or slash/bludge resistant enemies as a fighter! IT SUCKS BIG TIME the amount of clones running around is funny too, all those ppl with the same wpns same classes only the names are different. I realise some peoplel are bucking the trend and making really different characters but there are not many. So to finish up dont nerf wiz thats not what we need we just need more balance for the fighter classes oh and by the way 1 person saying it aint gonna get nothin done if you are out there and i know you all are longing for a fighter or ranger who can be trully legendary than post something man COME ON.

k. Here it is.

lvl 31 sorcerer, has 9 bigbys, that is, one chance of a KD per round
lvl 17 fighter; 4 KDs per round, unlimited number of times.
SHUT UP ABOUT BIGBYS, OR GO CRY ELSEWHERE

Fighter has about 400hp
Sorcer has about 200hp
DURRR

Fighter has 4 ~100hp attacks per round
Sorcer has 1 spell per round, maximized igms does 140 on a single target
Even after spending 1 FEAT and3 EPIC FEATS to get autoquicken the sorcerer STILL can not do as much damage as a fighter.

Fighter has about 30-50AC
Sorcer has about 15-20, buffed ~30




Oh, and the most important rule of all in ns4... we dont improve things here, we just nurf them.

Leveling a sorcerer is 10x harder then a fighter, why SHOULDNT a sorcerer be more powerfull?

[HavokTheFallen]

as much as i hate to agree with nom he is totally right.

excpt you can get a mage to 59 ac i have seen it done ask kromix

[Death Dealer1]

Evil has 45ac and i don't get fancy buffs like premonition......

[Jain]

lvl 31 sorcerer, has 9 bigbys, that is, one chance of a KD per round
lvl 17 fighter; 4 KDs per round, unlimited number of times.
SHUT UP ABOUT BIGBYS, OR GO CRY ELSEWHERE

if a pure lvl31 sorc met a pure lvl17 fighter, one wail would kill the fighter in 3 seconds.... the level 9 bigby's also does 14-24 dmg per round, and from my experience, when grappled, restricts some actions like healing - true a maxxed strength fighter can wriggle out and attack, but how is he gonna even get CLOSE to the mage when the mage is running around HASTED?? Plus don't forget a lvl31mage can GATE an aly in with ~400 hp to distract and damage the fighter!

Fighter has about 400hp
Sorcer has about 200hp

Fighter has 4 ~100hp attacks per round
Sorcer has 1 spell per round, maximized igms does 140 on a single target
Even after spending 1 FEAT and3 EPIC FEATS to get autoquicken the sorcerer STILL can not do as much damage as a fighter.

Fighter has about 30-50AC
Sorcer has about 15-20, buffed ~30

Ok, we're now talking about a level 31 fighter? if you get 11hp per level is 341hp, 12 per 372, a lvl17 fighter can max at 204hp..so 2 IGMS will do it.

I love how you inflate fighters and deflate sorc's... I have NEVER seen any fighter get around 4, 100hp attacks in a single round - the 3rd and 4th attack have too low an AB. At most you can land a double crit, which would probably need to be a decent lvl20 x3 weapon just to get over 100hp...but a pure ftr has a 5 or 10% chance of even getting 1 crit with most weapons. (remember we're talking pure fighter, no buffs, no weapon master)

You also fail to mention all the energy resist/absorb and DR spells that sorc's can cast... that effectively adds to the HP of the mage (the fighter hits and hits but all you get is 0 damage floating over the head). And so far the highest enhancement weapon is +5 and there is only 1, the rest are +4 or +3, so without GMW you can't bypass even premonition - which does last long enough to get of 3 maxxed IGMS's which will do 420 damage, no save, no DR!

Plus you have improved invisibility, a pure fighter won't even see the mage unless he's constantly using UP daggers or helms to cast seeing, then you have the 50% chance to miss with concealment from that.

Plus you have acid sheath, death armour and wounding whispers which attack the fighter with damage if they land a hit...

Sorc's can cast buffs, so they don't waste pots and scrolls(which a pure fighter can't even use anyway), and they can (if smart WILL ALWAYS) have their buffs up even as they walk around...

Fighters have to multiclass with a caster class and/or a UMD class to have any decent buffs to protect from INSTANT DEATH spells, and spell mantle pots have a really short duration. At the same time, a sorc can multiclass too and with a pool of skill points, can max out disc and/or tumble...hmm...

I know you know all of this, but you can't just rant about things using hypothetical pure builds

Oh, and the most important rule of all in ns4... we dont improve things here, we just nurf them.

Leveling a sorcerer is 10x harder then a fighter, why SHOULDNT a sorcerer be more powerfull?

I think the devs have done a great job! I feel the balance is getting better and better... and I partially thank KST for the constant battle-testing .

Yes! leveling a sorc is 10x harder, and sorcerers ARE more powerful in the later levels (when buffed)... If a fighter comes across a mage resting, then sure, he -can- win, but an invisible mage with a pile of buffs can cast a single spell to take out the fighter even quicker.

So really there IS some balance to the server, but you can't really play a pure mage or a pure fighter and expect to PvP effectively -- even YOU have multiclassed your sorc to get a sick level of saves and i'm sure you maxed your disc as well.

[J the Red]

I think he meant 4 attacks for a total of 100 hp per round Jain.

Cheers,

Fish

[Celorn]

yes, yes.. i think you're right there.. but that's all beside the point anyhow...

based on the book, not sure of the ns4 adjustments -- a sorc can have:

greater stone skin = 20/+5 (or normal stoneskin = 10/+5)
premonition = 30/+5

so with 2 buffs, there's 50 pts of damage absorbed, then there's the elemental damage that is part of that ~100 damage, oh no! the mage can absorb that too:

energy buffer - 40/- vs all elemental dmg
protection from elements 30/- vs elemental
elemental shield - 50% vs fire/cold + damages attacker

Plus don't forget about the DR from robes, and shield if the mage uses still.

and i didn't mention all the death-spells that the caster can fire off after HASTEdly running a safe distance OR when bigby's KD's the poor fighter, OR from invisible:

phantasmal killer
finger of death
weird
wail
pwk (an evil aoe noob-killer anyway)

and if all that was not enough, the mage can add (don't know ns4 adjustments):

Epic Mage armour = +20 AC -- suddenly that ~30ac becomes ~50
Epic Warding = 50/+20 -- oh no, how is the fighter gonna hack thru that?
Greater Ruin = 35d6 divine damage - OUCH

I need not go on, even a properly build pure mage can pwn with the proper spellset... yet a fighter has to successfully close-in and land a hit... i think the balance is there, and in favour of the buffed mage!

[Terminal Insanity]

if a pure lvl31 sorc met a pure lvl17 fighter, one wail would kill the fighter in 3 seconds.... the level 9 bigby's also does 14-24 dmg per round, and from my experience, when grappled, restricts some actions like healing - true a maxxed strength fighter can wriggle out and attack, but how is he gonna even get CLOSE to the mage when the mage is running around HASTED?? Plus don't forget a lvl31mage can GATE an aly in with ~400 hp to distract and damage the fighter!

the summons are horribly weak. 3 ogres can take out dragon knight, gate, etc etc etc etc.... its rediculus.
Yes, we get haste but LA gets haste for free. bards get haste. paladins get haste. clerics get haste. druids get haste. the majority of classes get haste... and if they dont, theres always the option of using items/pots. A fighter _CAN_ use items and heal between grapple attempts. if my sorcerer can do it and your fighter cant, then you belong on newbie char building forums, and not the suggestion box. something is seriously screwed up with your char.
Yes, bigbys gets an extra ~10hp damage, the majority of chars can ignore this damage. And then think about the fighter's 4KDs per round, still doing full damage. Bigbys is NOWHERE near as overpowered as the KD and Called Shot feats.

Ok, we're now talking about a level 31 fighter? if you get 11hp per level is 341hp, 12 per 372, a lvl17 fighter can max at 204hp..so 2 IGMS will do it.

Yes... im compairing a lvl17 fighter's abilities to a lvl31 mage's abilities in some areas, because they are the best for comparison. It is a FACT a lvl17 gets 4 KD attempts per round, at full damage. Mages do not get this number of attacks. And a good fighter would have more then the base con bonus... and then dont forget the con items.
Now, a lvl17 wont be able to do ~100hp damage, but a lvl30 fighter can. ive been hit for 80-120hp each hit, at 4 hits per round, while i had greter stoneskin, premonition, and imp invis. that is far over the mage's maximum of 280hp per round. and he can only do that ammount of damage per round a few times, untill his lvl9 spells are lost.

I love how you inflate fighters and deflate sorc's... I have NEVER seen any fighter get around 4, 100hp attacks in a single round - the 3rd and 4th attack have too low an AB. At most you can land a double crit, which would probably need to be a decent lvl20 x3 weapon just to get over 100hp...but a pure ftr has a 5 or 10% chance of even getting 1 crit with most weapons. (remember we're talking pure fighter, no buffs, no weapon master)

Another point is, a mage SHOULD be able to kill a fighter without hastle. i mean... COME ON!! A guy running around swinging a sword is supposed to stand a chance against someone who can disappear, rain meteors, bust apart the ground, throw fireballs, etc etc etc etc? A mage should never, ever have a problem taking out a fighter. a Fighter is SUPPOSED to die vs a mage. If he doesnt, there is ether a problem with your mage build, or a problem with your module.

You also fail to mention all the energy resist/absorb and DR spells that sorc's can cast... that effectively adds to the HP of the mage (the fighter hits and hits but all you get is 0 damage floating over the head). And so far the highest enhancement weapon is +5 and there is only 1, the rest are +4 or +3, so without GMW you can't bypass even premonition - which does last long enough to get of 3 maxxed IGMS's which will do 420 damage, no save, no DR!

Ive seen a +5 keen, and im 95% sure i saw a +6 weapon. Both ignore a mage's premonition... the only thing that will save you is Epic Warding, wich doesnt last long at all.

Plus you have improved invisibility, a pure fighter won't even see the mage unless he's constantly using UP daggers or helms to cast seeing, then you have the 50% chance to miss with concealment from that.

Invisibility will only allow the mage to get the first strike... and yes, they miss half the time, but they dont need to hit 100% because a mage generaly has a quarter of the HP a good fighter has.

Plus you have acid sheath, death armour and wounding whispers which attack the fighter with damage if they land a hit...

They dont stack, and do only minimal damage (less then bigbys) plus, a fighter has uber HP anyways, and infinate KDs so its not like it even makes a difference unless the fighter was build like an idiot with low CON

Sorc's can cast buffs, so they don't waste pots and scrolls(which a pure fighter can't even use anyway), and they can (if smart WILL ALWAYS) have their buffs up even as they walk around...

Any class can use pots at Any level. You do not need UMD, you do not need any feats, or skills, to use a haste pot. Your level one pure fighter is free to use haste pots. and lvl16 gear.

Fighters have to multiclass with a caster class and/or a UMD class to have any decent buffs to protect from INSTANT DEATH spells, and spell mantle pots have a really short duration. At the same time, a sorc can multiclass too and with a pool of skill points, can max out disc and/or tumble...hmm...

Yes they do, and allong with a ton of UMD that will let them use anything they want, they'll get an assortment of other skills that come with that class as well. Yes, mages do get nice benifits from multiclassing, but so do other classes, some even more so.

I think the devs have done a great job! I feel the balance is getting better and better... and I partially thank KST for the constant battle-testing .

Yes! leveling a sorc is 10x harder, and sorcerers ARE more powerful in the later levels (when buffed)... If a fighter comes across a mage resting, then sure, he -can- win, but an invisible mage with a pile of buffs can cast a single spell to take out the fighter even quicker.

So really there IS some balance to the server, but you can't really play a pure mage or a pure fighter and expect to PvP effectively -- even YOU have multiclassed your sorc to get a sick level of saves and i'm sure you maxed your disc as well.

yes i did, and no, the disc doesnt help much at all. i still get KDed enough to effectivly put me out of the battle after the first blow.

And its funny KST gets respect for PvPing, when they literaly do the EXACT same thing i do, and all i get is grief and "i hope you get cancer"
I should know, i used to party with them and PK lvl5s in ns city a rediculus amount of times. Goes to show, its all about who you know, not what you do.

[Terminal Insanity]

based on the book, not sure of the ns4 adjustments -- a sorc can have:

greater stone skin = 20/+5 (or normal stoneskin = 10/+5)
premonition = 30/+5

And its all ignored with a +5 keen or a +6 weapon. available to any melee class at lvl25.

so with 2 buffs, there's 50 pts of damage absorbed, then there's the elemental damage that is part of that ~100 damage, oh no! the mage can absorb that too:

so with 2 weeks of leveling, theres 50pts of damage that is no longer absorbed.
Blah, and all the elemental damage absorb doesnt much matter, what fighter has a ton of elemental damage? My AO helm probably absorbs enough elemental damage on its own.

Plus don't forget about the DR from robes, and shield if the mage uses still.

Dont forget about the DR and AC from your fighter's Armor, and shield.

and i didn't mention all the death-spells that the caster can fire off after HASTEdly running a safe distance OR when bigby's KD's the poor fighter, OR from invisible:

And the majority of players (a good 90% of them anyway) have haste, regardless of their class. Anyone thinking of PvPing is going to build some haste into their character, even if its through pots.

phantasmal killer - Weak. Requires two saves to work.
finger of death - Semi-weak, but yeah its none too shabby.
weird - Requires two saves to work.
wail - Only works the first time, otherwise a good spell.
pwk - Useless.

And a single spell can make you immune to them all.

Epic Mage armour = +20 AC -- suddenly that ~30ac becomes ~50
Epic Warding = 50/+20 -- oh no, how is the fighter gonna hack thru that?
Greater Ruin = 35d6 divine damage - OUCH

Epic Mage Armor doesnt do +20ac. It would if you cast it naked, but it doesnt stack ontop of your item/buffed ac. my lvl40 pure sorc before the wipe only got an extra 3 or 4 ac from that spell.
Warding is a nice spell, i'll admit. It doesnt last long though, so its only good for emergencys... and it still doesnt help vs KD, so your fighter can still pin the mage down untill it wears off...



And the post was using a fighter as an example for some of the points... Of course, you could always take into account the Cleric's insane 7 attacks per round, 400hp hits, etc. Or the monk's SR, speed, etc. Or the SD class. Or Assassin. RDD's STR. All of who can rather easily take out a mage.

Some classes should be able to blow apart a mage no problem. Thats what the monk class is for. Why gimp a mage because of what a fighter cant do?

And IGMS is broken, utterly broken. it is only usefull if you are fighting 1v1. otherwise, you may as well be using lvl5 spells because they do equal damage. (more maximized) Also, players have been abusing this bug to gain advantages, by rallying goblins around them to water down your IGMS, or when you are trying to kill two or three players, they will not respawn and your damage STILL gets divided into the dead players.

[Dynmi]

I didn't know druid get haste! Woot!.... Now All I gotta do is find it.

[Holghask]

Sounds like someone really enjoys playing their uber mage toon (Nomius Phasha) and doesn't want any nerfing of it happening anytime soon...
I remember how Terminal Insanity cried on these forums and said he wasn't coming back when maxed IGMs got nerfed from 240 dmg to 140 last October...

Come on, one buffed mage 30th lev will take out a 17th lev fighter every time without any effort...furthermore, a 30th lev mage fully buffed and well played will beat every other 30th lev class the majority of the time save for a monk/SD build or other HIPSter...if you refuse to admit this or see it you are playing a mage like a noob, or have another alterior motive...

A 30th lev mage casting mord's then bigbies then maxed IGMs means one dead opponent...(not to mention waiting with the Epic Greater Ruin in case the mage needs to finish the opponent off for around 200hp dmg)...

Bigbies is probably the single most powerful spell resulting in the uber mage (the fort save on it only takes Spellcraft into account during the first fort save roll...after that, the spellcraft bonus to a save is ignored for subsequent crushes).

My 35th caster cleric/1 rogue/1 monk has a hell of a time fighting Lework's 40th lev mage, Celor's 34th lev mage, or any other mage around 35th lev and having more than 200 hp (EGR proof in essence)...even though I have about 300 greater spell mantle scrolls for use with UMD.

The above mages have quickened spells that beat my slow scroll most of the time...furthermore my 47 SR is reduced to 37 SR with any mord's spell and then easily overcome by any mage around 30th level having the 3 spell penetration feats...

One final thought to persuade those that mages really are the most powerful class on this server: most non-mage builds with high UMD skills or builds that take 1 lev of sorc or wizzy to max spellcraft at 30+, use Bigbies scrolls to paralyze and then bash their opponent into a pulp (it's the easiest method to PK someone).

Dismissal items help vs bigbies, but are not automatic...one must be running in between the knockdowns to be able to dismiss the green hand...meanwhile those IGMs are homing in...

So come on, to not admit how powerful mages are is in fact covering up another motive...

H

Now, what would I do if I was in charge of the dev to maybe even the scales a bit? Hmmmm.....probably try a quick fix by upping the hide items or making True Seeing a shorter duration/less bonus to spot (+10 maybe instead of +20)...and leave everything else (including Bigbies) the way it is...thus sneakers would really have an advantage over mages...as it is now, the sneaker can hurt a mage real bad, but if they don't have HIPS, they are toast...

[Zing]

Oh, and the most important rule of all in ns4... we dont improve things here, we just nurf them.

Not funny at all.
Got some constructive comments about ways to improve things? We're happy to hear them. If your suggestions are reasonable and balanced (doubtful from reading the rest of the rubbish you wrote) there's a very good chance of them getting implemented.
Your NS4 dev team make improvements to this mod DAILY. Not from time to time or once in a while, but every single day. We don't expect appreciation or thanks but spare us the slaps in the face.

[Death Dealer1]

i want an item that gives me +15 to hide/ms.....just to offset the clair audience/voiyance and spot to mages of +30.......all i want is half. is that so wrong?

[Elagneros]

And its all ignored with a +5 keen or a +6 weapon. available to any melee class at lvl25.

*A* weapon is the key word here, as there is only 1 +5 weapon in all of NS4. Not that helpful to a tank, because most of the fighter types will have (Epic) Weapon Focus, (Epic) Weapon Specialization, Improved Crit, and probably WM levels. Sure they can specialize in battleaxe (the afore mentioned +5), but there are few unique battleaxes in the game, which means the character will be using lots of the generic axes until level 25. Besides, it would get boring fast if every fighter ran around with noting but battleaxes all the time.

[Death Dealer1]

like everyone running around with lag hammers for 2 years?

[Celorn]

Yeah.. well as was pointed out, most of what Nom spewed was pure one-sided rant...

Kromix, Willow and Zacho and so many others have proven first hand to me that their mage builds are quite powerful... but it is true, once the spells run out, a mage is SOL until they can rest safely, that's where the balance is.

And as many mages have found out thanks to my monk: monks are truly mage-killers especially with rogue and SD levels :> - it's when you have cheesed up your mage build with other classes that you can get decent skills to counteract it...

to the DEVS: GREAT JOB SO FAR! Keep up the good work! and I'll help any way I can... to test things.

to Holghask: GREAT POST! Helpful info in there...perhaps TOO helpful ~.~

to Elagneros: Yeah..I've told him several times there is no +6 weapon (yet)... of course you can multiclass with cleric, bard, etc.. you can make ANY weapon +5...but still, a smart mage will breach you of that if they can...