Balance gear out
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Aarkon Draco
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cloud of bewilderment? fort save and dazes targets who fail but it does make sense that a dazed SD wouldent be able to continue hiding or atleast have some penaltys to keep the hide going while dazed
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cRaZy8or5e
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Everybody else has commented, so I'll add my two cents.
It is harder to make a good spotter than it is to make a good sneak, its true. A spotter must sacrifice much in the way of feats to be good at it. A sneak does as well, but while the sneak knows his sacrifice is for his own survival, the spotter has no such comfort ie spending the feats for epic spell focus divination, or using skill focuses to get more listen or spot.
Having said that, I don't agree that the system needs to be changed. The odds are on the side of the spotters that eventually the sneak will have a bad roll against their spot/listen check. Much like with the police and lawbreakers, eventually the odds will catch up with you. Additionally there are many environmental factors that affect hide, brightly lit areas, light emitting objects on enemy toons, etc. If a spotter wants to pursue a sneak into a dark/shadowy area, its his skin.
I do think maybe one other epic lvl item, say a "mantle of the hunter" +5 spot and listen, but anything more than that would be over the top and make SD's superfluous. Or perhaps in certain factions they need to be given job items that enhance their spot/listen abilities. This would be especially true in places like MA and SL who don't have access to rangers, and MA does not have access to monks. If you're going to build a zen archer spotter you should build it (imho) with some monk or you're gonna spend a lot of time running away from sneaks
. Hopefully the zen archer has friends there to protect him .
It is harder to make a good spotter than it is to make a good sneak, its true. A spotter must sacrifice much in the way of feats to be good at it. A sneak does as well, but while the sneak knows his sacrifice is for his own survival, the spotter has no such comfort ie spending the feats for epic spell focus divination, or using skill focuses to get more listen or spot.
Having said that, I don't agree that the system needs to be changed. The odds are on the side of the spotters that eventually the sneak will have a bad roll against their spot/listen check. Much like with the police and lawbreakers, eventually the odds will catch up with you. Additionally there are many environmental factors that affect hide, brightly lit areas, light emitting objects on enemy toons, etc. If a spotter wants to pursue a sneak into a dark/shadowy area, its his skin.
I do think maybe one other epic lvl item, say a "mantle of the hunter" +5 spot and listen, but anything more than that would be over the top and make SD's superfluous. Or perhaps in certain factions they need to be given job items that enhance their spot/listen abilities. This would be especially true in places like MA and SL who don't have access to rangers, and MA does not have access to monks. If you're going to build a zen archer spotter you should build it (imho) with some monk or you're gonna spend a lot of time running away from sneaks
. Hopefully the zen archer has friends there to protect him ."Nobody Expects the Northern Inquisition!!!!"
-Blystos Re-
-Blystos Re-
from info in another thread i've come to the conclusion that more +spot items would not make a difference, and more +listen wouldnt help either unless a combination of items could get you into the +30/+40 range.
According to Sparky theres an overall skill cap of 127 (your character sheet is lying to you). there is a separate +50 cap on how far items and spells can buff a skill. a 30 bard gets into competitive listen range through amp +20, clair +10, bard song +14, helm +10 (which really only gives you +6.. because you're past the +50 cap.) add in your base skills and feats and there you have it. as theres not much +ms gear in the game, you have the more or less competitive system you have now.
spot is worse off, because it IS possible to cap out your hide through gear (+37gear +bardsong|ranger spells == cap. Sorry, ghostwisers.) if a spotter does the same then it comes down to the stat bonus (which does not apply towards the +50 cap). so your hider with say a +15 bonus from dex is going to beat the spotter badly, unless spotter ALSO has a +15 bonus to wisdom (which is the spot stat).
so given all the caps more +spot/+listen gear won't help purpose built caster spotters at all. and unless the gear combo can match what the spells do (+30), they wont help the non-caster wisdom based spotters either (they'll still fall short). it would allow your purpose countertoons to maybe shift gear slots around if there was a different helmet you wanted though.
ideally there would have been less +hide gear (around +22), so that people's hide and ms would be roughly the same (a few tweaks to the sneak and detect spells could ensure whatever appropriate balance was desired). but the cat is out of the bag now and that's not possible short of an itemwipe.
moral of the story? spot is for clerics. epic focus div is for clerics with no bard or helmet. listen is for bards. others need not apply for spot at all, unless they are content with only taking out the poorly built/ low level trash of the SD world.
According to Sparky theres an overall skill cap of 127 (your character sheet is lying to you). there is a separate +50 cap on how far items and spells can buff a skill. a 30 bard gets into competitive listen range through amp +20, clair +10, bard song +14, helm +10 (which really only gives you +6.. because you're past the +50 cap.) add in your base skills and feats and there you have it. as theres not much +ms gear in the game, you have the more or less competitive system you have now.
spot is worse off, because it IS possible to cap out your hide through gear (+37gear +bardsong|ranger spells == cap. Sorry, ghostwisers.) if a spotter does the same then it comes down to the stat bonus (which does not apply towards the +50 cap). so your hider with say a +15 bonus from dex is going to beat the spotter badly, unless spotter ALSO has a +15 bonus to wisdom (which is the spot stat).
so given all the caps more +spot/+listen gear won't help purpose built caster spotters at all. and unless the gear combo can match what the spells do (+30), they wont help the non-caster wisdom based spotters either (they'll still fall short). it would allow your purpose countertoons to maybe shift gear slots around if there was a different helmet you wanted though.
ideally there would have been less +hide gear (around +22), so that people's hide and ms would be roughly the same (a few tweaks to the sneak and detect spells could ensure whatever appropriate balance was desired). but the cat is out of the bag now and that's not possible short of an itemwipe.
moral of the story? spot is for clerics. epic focus div is for clerics with no bard or helmet. listen is for bards. others need not apply for spot at all, unless they are content with only taking out the poorly built/ low level trash of the SD world.
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Blystos Re
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On the note of spells knocking you out of hide, a good dexer is going to make the reflex save against things like grease and entangle. Tentacles...maybe? However, I don't think that every spell should knock them out of stealth mode.
Stuff like the Rumble, Great Thunderclap, etc. makes more sense. And if Hellball doesn't already cancel your stealth mode it definitely should.
I like the idea of more ways to challenge a SD maintaining HiPS, but please be selective about what spells (and what level of spells) have that effect.
Stuff like the Rumble, Great Thunderclap, etc. makes more sense. And if Hellball doesn't already cancel your stealth mode it definitely should.
I like the idea of more ways to challenge a SD maintaining HiPS, but please be selective about what spells (and what level of spells) have that effect.