changes to Shadow dancers

[Nyeleni]

They can .

[Korr]

I think the most over-looked part of SD is the fact that level 6 and every 2 levels of SD after that gives +1 hide/ms, as well as if youre dex based youre shadow daze can reach an AMAZING DC(remember no more mind immunities). They also get AC and DR from Shadow Evade. So all these spotters can be dealt with better by SDs, just need more than 5 SD levels. And seriously when was they last time anyone saw someone with more than 5 SD levels?

[Amoenotep]

i had one once...couldn't be spotted....ever

[cRaZy8or5e]

I believe NC can have SD's, unless that's been changed since the wipe.

They're still available.

The queue clearing thing is my only problem with them. It is a bit of a pain to have to level a caster/bard class to be able to spot/listen for them. Its even more of a pain that a listener still loses AC as if the sd was a hidden attacker, but, as has been stated. This subject has been discussed to death, its grave has been pissed on, the body has been exhumed, been beaten to a pulp with a big stick, re-interred with a pile driver, excavated by explosive means, painstakingly put back together by archeologists, and then discussed to death all over again.

Edit: I can't believe I got sucked back into an anti-SD thread . . . again.

[Anelad]

How many ways are there to defeat hipsers?
build Aasimar, use any class you want, for example COT, you dont even need to pick epic skill focus on spot/listen.
build a pure barbarian, use bloody roar when they get close.
build a wiz or sor, use wail of banshee.
build a imploder, pure Cleric or Cleric/COT.
build a bard/AA, ask eldaquen about its performance.
Of course I cant cover all builds here, this's just a short list.
Are they sux except vs hipser?If you do take hipsers into consideration when you building, its not hard to see them.If you dont, that's your problem.BTW, I know a wiz, he doesnt use wail of banshee when facing hipser, he uses bow and time stop!
So, build better, play better, and dont whine.

[disastro]

BTW, I know a wiz, he doesnt use wail of banshee when facing hipser, he uses bow and time stop!

if you think bow+time stop works you have lost much credibility in the rest of your statements.

you can no longer use time stop in this fashion.

So, build better, play better, and dont whine.

sigh.

[cRaZy8or5e]

How many ways are there to defeat hipsers?
build Aasimar, use any class you want, for example COT, you dont even need to pick epic skill focus on spot/listen.
build a pure barbarian, use bloody roar when they get close.
build a wiz or sor, use wail of banshee.
build a imploder, pure Cleric or Cleric/COT.
build a bard/AA, ask eldaquen about its performance.
Of course I cant cover all builds here, this's just a short list.
Are they sux except vs hipser?If you do take hipsers into consideration when you building, its not hard to see them.If you dont, that's your problem.BTW, I know a wiz, he doesnt use wail of banshee when facing hipser, he uses bow and time stop!
So, build better, play better, and dont whine.

You're "short list" of HiPSer killers only kill badly built HiPSers. Well cept for Elda's Bard/AA. That was a decent HiPSer killer, but the rest of your so called builds are sadly lacking. It's not your fault really, you just haven't gone up against good HiPSers . Oh and bow and time stop don't work anymore, unless they changed timestop so you can do damage during its duration again.

And all of those builds will have their actions cleared by a HiPSer, its a fault of the engine.

[VagaStorm]

build Aasimar, use any class you want, for example COT, you dont even need to pick epic skill focus on spot/listen.
build a pure barbarian, use bloody roar when they get close.

Do once and your general hipser learn to use a bow, problem solved....

build a wiz or sor, use wail of banshee.
build a imploder, pure Cleric or Cleric/COT.

Spam hips, and it will be hard to get even one off.... For implode you need to know where the hipser is. For wail, use silence...

What we are left with is the bard aa, which is not a wery good spoter without true seeing. How ever it is prety easy to get a sorc/aa to about 120 spot, and doable to get 127 if you realy put your hart to it

[Bargeld]

ANY toon with spot and required casting ability:
42 or 43 skill point dump
10 epic focus
30 from truesight and c/c (non-focus)
7 from gear (easy to get)
A few more from nat wisdom + gear

This gets you to roughly 90-95 spot with 1 epic feat.

Divination focus nets you 20 more spot, getting you to 110-115.

This is supposed to be difficult to do?

[LinuxPup]

bottom line: build for spot (not listen!) and deal.

Why's that? I've made bards (listen of course), and they do excellent in PvP against all sorts of HiPSers. Listen works wonders. Especially considering its tougher to raise Move Silently than it is Hide... if anything Listen is better *if* you can get it high (usually means Amplify).

[Lorkar]

Listen without keen senses is crap as is spot. Keen senses being the operative term.

My Assassin has a spot of almost 90 at 34th level so its not hard to build a good spotter if you put your mind to it. I am not saying mine is a good one, mine is a no brainer spotter, max spot get gear and use the Assassin buffs. No skill focuses in spot either. With skill foci in spot it would be over 100.


And as far as having to know where the SD is to implode it...well, yeah lets go with that one.

[Korr]

Any good SD will be pretty close to immune to implode or wail. And like I think was said already, clearing the action que is the problem. . . not having enough spot to see them is not the problem.

[disastro]

ANY toon with spot and required casting ability:
42 or 43 skill point dump
10 epic focus
30 from truesight and c/c (non-focus)
7 from gear (easy to get)
A few more from nat wisdom + gear
This gets you to roughly 90-95 spot with 1 epic feat.
Divination focus nets you 20 more spot, getting you to 110-115.
This is supposed to be difficult to do?

you've run into the +50 skill cap buff... so your actual spot is less than that depending on wisdom.

43 + 10 focus +50 cap =103 + wisdom. this used to be non-competitive prewipe as the sd could also cap out +50 easily, but had the advantage of adding his dex. spotter would have to be a pure wis build which reduced the number of possible counters to zen cleric basically.

[disastro]

bottom line: build for spot (not listen!) and deal.

Why's that? I've made bards (listen of course), and they do excellent in PvP against all sorts of HiPSers. Listen works wonders. Especially considering its tougher to raise Move Silently than it is Hide... if anything Listen is better *if* you can get it high (usually means Amplify).

big problem with listen is that they are still considered invisible, so they demolish your ac/cripple/etc. if you're str/melee you're insta corpse. if you're ranged dex then you're on more equal footing, except that they can hit you far more easily than you can hit them (and you have to contend with action queue clearing).

spot at least gets to retain most of their ac.

prewipe the only way to get competitive listen vs the high end was to be a wisdom based bard. (i had an "SD destroyer build" dex elf bard with about 109 listen all told.. and he was not effective against well built hiders. a lot of that however was due to the move silent buffing spells + old bard song however. i think this situation is much better now but I haven't seen any bigtime SDs in pk yet.

[Anelad]

BTW, I know a wiz, he doesnt use wail of banshee when facing hipser, he uses bow and time stop!

if you think bow+time stop works you have lost much credibility in the rest of your statements.

you can no longer use time stop in this fashion.

So, build better, play better, and dont whine.

sigh.

misunderstanding?
I THINK bow+time stop (he used this for running) is a wrong way, and that guy didnt even try to use wail of banshee.
Isnt "play better" a good suggestion for him?
what's the "sign"?