Duration of polymorph self

[Lorkar]

If mages get LONG term polymorph, can we un-nerf the druid spells? Im assuming on this one that druids are supposed to be the "shifty" types and mages are the casting type.

Ice Storm was improved (not party friendly)
Natures Balance. . . nerfed
Creeping Doom. . . nerfed
Isaacs. . . powerfull
Bigby. . . powerfull
etc. . . etc
etc

Using that logic Korr then the "shifty" types should just be able to shift and not HiPS since HiPSing is "hidey" stuff reserved for SD's.
Arcane casters are ultimately worthless in planar areas except as party buffers. Clerics have some areas where they can solo no problem, SD's have more, fighters even have areas they can solo, not too mention Barbs. Offhand I cannot think of a single planar area that Arcane casters can even attempt nevermind succeed. All the polymorph self spell does is give the caster a little more survivability. All planar creatures I have come across seem to have very little problem in making any save against an arcane caster. Taking that into account what do they have left? IGMS? How many of those are needed to kill even a single creature? Usually more than one would have mem'd. So what is a caster to do? Run away? Thats about the only thing they are good at these days.


This is a moot point since NS4 has no Dev's to speak of anyways, so any discussion is more an exercise in futility than anything else. Kind of like peeing in the wind and trying to convince yourself it is a nice warm tropical rain.

[Korr]

Arance casters useless in planar areas?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Are you two serious? Here comes a VERY VERY short list of why every planar party needs a atleast 1 mage.

Ever been to DWP without a mage to counterspell? If you did you didnt make it far. . . those mages, faern and others rip people apart
Ever been to Dragon Eyrie with out countering? Gila, and Mirandee. Radiant Dragon without IGMS is a no go. Molech without 3 mages will N E V E R happen ( NEVER!!! )
Celestia - Trumpets, Lanterns
Posi/Negi - oozes

The lesser planes can be done, I will give you that. But the only exception to some of these circumstances is if you brought a party that was 1/2 clerics!

If bigby and igms are so useless, why are those the 2 major spells used in PvP?

Druids are the shifty type, if they multi-class with SD. Or use the drow form why cant they be sneaky? There are plenty of SD mages around too. If the duration of polymorph was increased that would also make scrolls a viable source of using the spell. Lengthening the duration of polymorph does open a lot of new builds . . . but these would start to push those limits of breaking the balance I think. As it stands a wiz/sd is the one build that can have a hipsing dragon or contruct or demon.

[Tal]

Arance casters useless in planar areas?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Are you two serious? Here comes a VERY VERY short list of why every planar party needs a atleast 1 mage.

Ever been to DWP without a mage to counterspell? If you did you didnt make it far. . . those mages, faern and others rip people apart
Ever been to Dragon Eyrie with out countering? Gila, and Mirandee. Radiant Dragon without IGMS is a no go. Molech without 3 mages will N E V E R happen ( NEVER!!! )
Celestia - Trumpets, Lanterns
Posi/Negi - oozes

The lesser planes can be done, I will give you that. But the only exception to some of these circumstances is if you brought a party that was 1/2 clerics!

.

Actually I have been to those areas many times and without a wizard most of them. So the wizard throws in 2 spells... not that useful in my opinion. I would rather have a cleric or two any day over a wizard. Wizards are grease monkies and dispell tossers for the most part. IGMS... yes it is used in PvP because most of the other spells simply do not do much against other players other than stun or annoy them. Bigby's? Please... that spell hardly is effective anymore against any well built toon. Wizards have become nothing more than support toons in planar areas, exactly as you stated with your post above.

HiPSing dragons, golems, and demons? Well, whats the difference from HiPSing elementals that seem to be spreading all over? In reality it is nothing more than a HiPSing PM with more bonuses and less restrictions. Nothing against the build, but people had to adapt. The builds can still be made with the spell as is. Extending the duration simply provides more survivability in PvM and planar areas.

Again, I still see no true reason not to change the duration. Wizards have seen spell nerfs that have reduced them to nothing but glowing piles of poo. There are a few sorcs and wizards of notoriety in AO, SL, and where ever your toon Karate is out of, yet not a single one is considered anything more than a mere annoyance. This is not because of the builder, believe me when I give you credit for your building skills, but this is because the classes have been nerfed to uselessness. Other servers have brought greater power to casters, where NS4 pounded them into the dirt. This could be a chance to add some flavor to the now considered one hit wonders.

[--Ashe--]

Oh woe be to the arcane casters and their limited range of spells in which to kill someone. What a joke.

[Tal]

Oh woe be to the arcane casters and their limited range of spells in which to kill someone. What a joke.

Woe? Who is crying woe to spellcasters? Since I am generally fighting arcane builds rather than playing them I am sort of glad they suck. I love the fact that I am actually defending what I think to be a great idea for a class that I do not even like to play. So other than your obnoxious comment that has no meaning what so ever, do you have any input on the topic or are you just trying to draw attention to the fact that you have no intelligent input? If that is the case then job well done.

If you actually do have constructive input then by all means... please share.

[Korr]

I think alot of the problems with the arcane is the focusing. . . basically without focusing you cant do much with your spells. There are still plenty of usefull spells around though, I think its overboard to say that mages are useless or just party buffers in planar areas. This requires specialization, which means the wizard has a specific purpose. As an example, a wizard/sorc has limited usefullness in dragon eyrie on ur way to molech. Once in molechs chamber though and its toe to toe with that beast ultimately its the wizard that kills the dragon, igms (still/silent, max, empower) ruin and hellball. I agree that molech is an extreme case, but its a good one. Molech is near IMMUNE to physical damage and packs himself a hefty punch too. As far as bigby not being effective, since FoM is now strippable there are MULTIPLE builds that are now bigby bait on that alone. mords + slow bigby will get every dragon form shifter, every RDD dragon, pure fighters (excepting their token isnt mordable), pure barbarians. . . and many other of those restrictive classes. And since its bioware slow if you had even 10 attacks a round youre down to 1 attack a round. . . a haste spell wont help either. 9th level bigby still bypasses stun immunities even though mind immunity has been removed from the server all-together. So other than having 75+ AC standing and 43 ranks + arcane defense + skill focus + epic skill focus lots of toons can be bigbied by the right mage.

As far as other usefull spells youll have to look around to find the other gems. . . but consider divination focus, +50 spot from spells and PWK under 200 (or is it 175 I forget). No save just SR and death. Add greater ruin, hellball, and a few igms or bigby to that mix and 1 on 1 isnt too bad for a mage.

[Bargeld]

I seem to remember that you can't beat the Black Lord with melee... IGM's and multiple rests is the only way.

[Tal]

Indeed good points. Focus and specialties give the arcane a nitch to play in. And both points are quite valid as far as the usefulness of an arcane caster. Arcane casters have their role to play for sure. I may go to far as to say they are useless... but they have lost a good measure of their usefulness from what they once were.

But, what about the duration issue? The only reason I am pursuing this is because to me it makes sense, and it could bring a lot to the game. If I am missing something as far as to the real dangers of extending the spell duration then please share. But as far I can tell the only real issue is extending builds that can already be made and just allowing them to have a little more survivability. I compare them to the HiPSing elemental build, because that build is pretty good and does not have the limitations that the extended polymorph would have.

Again, I have only built a few arcane toons and do not have the build expertise for this class. Every one I ended up making got nerfed to complete uselessness... and that was because of specialty builds that required key abilities and spells that got changed. It just makes sense to me to change the duration.

[Korr]

Somewhere in the early teen levels you can use polymorph scrolls, all you need is 1 sorc/wiz level. Scrolls are sribed at level 17 I believe (minimum required to cast). So you can have a wicked build put up that has lots of abilities that can be used while shifted (bard song, hips, divine might/shield, etc, etc) and at level 15 or so be able to turn into a dragon for 170 rounds. That is more than twice the duration of a level 40 pure wizard casting extended haste. And were talking about giving a level 15 toon that could be a huge scary dragon with breath weapon, a crit/sneak big DR construct, or a giant with a pole, a balor with a blade, etc, etc. Even a level 17 caster would have the ability to go 170 rounds in that form. If you made polymorph last turn/level I guaruntee that alot less people will gripe about not being able to harm mobs to PL. . . they will just go dragon/construct/whatever form instead.

[Lorkar]

Well then make the change to the spell being cast and leave the scrolls as is.

[Korr]

Isnt there enough lag without having to change a spell during if cast and then needing to add a script to check if youre casting from a scroll and if you are then change the duration?

[Shadowalker]

Spell focus seams to be a major consideration on this server.. in following with that you could have the duration bonus focus based.

Strait up casting.. 1 rnd/lvl
Tans focus...... 1 r/lvl + 1 turn or 2 r/lvl
grt focus...... 1 r/lvl + 2 turns or 3 r/lvl
epic focus..... 1 r/lvl + 3 turns or 4 r/lvl

[Tal]

Spell focus seams to be a major consideration on this server.. in following with that you could have the duration bonus focus based.

Strait up casting.. 1 rnd/lvl
Tans focus...... 1 r/lvl + 1 turn or 2 r/lvl
grt focus...... 1 r/lvl + 2 turns or 3 r/lvl
epic focus..... 1 r/lvl + 3 turns or 4 r/lvl

I like that line of thought. It makes spell focused and pure casters gain, which in truth is how it should be. It is a way to reward those who focus in the arcane arts over other areas.

[MLoki]

Spell focus seams to be a major consideration on this server.. in following with that you could have the duration bonus focus based.

Strait up casting.. 1 rnd/lvl
Tans focus...... 1 r/lvl + 1 turn or 2 r/lvl
grt focus...... 1 r/lvl + 2 turns or 3 r/lvl
epic focus..... 1 r/lvl + 3 turns or 4 r/lvl

True. This would also limit duration of scroll readers. This change probably won't happen but that is a nice workaround idea. I would honestly love to see more changes like this based on focuses. This would limit the everyday mage and give a slight advantage to specific spells to specialized mages.