Korr wrote:Apples to oranges elda, youre not exploring all the options. 35 druid / 5 shifter would give you the spot you want. A epic skill focus discipline would give you a 10 disc boost. If you cant see it already then theres nothing more I can show you.
In response to hips being nerfed, Ben Dover was built with that impending doom in mind. With buffs he has over 80 AC and is immune to crits/sneaks.
Eldaquen's point is that you can't compare RDD dragons to druid dragons. They truly are are apples to oranges. There just aren't that many options when it comes to a druid dragon as compared to an RDD dragon. She spelled it out for you and I'm honestly and truly flabbergasted that you can't see it Korr.
Whether or not it's a pain to level an RDD dragon or not, well, the very fact that there are some running around is proof that its not the journey but the lvl 40 end result.
Do I think RDD dragons need to be nerfed? Nah not really. The very fact that they are so difficult to level should reward whoever has the guts to stick it out and give them a juggernaut.
However, the nerfs to the epic shapes for druids were just a lil bit over the top. The boosts that some of the other shapes received well, those were over the top, especially considering nothing needed to be sacrificed to receive them.
I'm wandering now, so to reiterate my original point; you can compare druid dragons and RDD dragons, but you really shouldn't. They look alike on the screen but the similarity stops there. The guts(feats and abilities) inside and the resulting strengths and strategies involved in using them should be completely different. You can compare apples and oranges all you want, but they are different and should be viewed as such.
"Nobody Expects the Northern Inquisition!!!!"
-Blystos Re-
Hasn't anyone figured it out why the Dev's don't fix things? The answer is simple, I'll put in apples and oranges terms.
The apples = If some actual ideas or suggestions were put forth in these types of threads, something might actually get done.
The oranges = No one likes staying on topic, if you wish to talk about multi class druid builds, RDD builds, or a my build is better than your build, things will never get done.
So in short, stay on the title's topic, and just maybe things might get fixed/changed.
Yes, fully aware druid/shifter dragon would be able to max spot. Known that for some time. In fact do believe I wrote about that in another thread somewhere: one difference between a druid dragon and a druid/shifter dragon is spot; druid dragon better in some encounters like vs fighters, by casting SoV and other spells: while druid shifter dragon is better suited to combat SD's due to spot being a shifter class feat. A niche for each prospective dragon build.
Honestly that post was long enough without discussing every possible variation of a druid or druid/shifter dragon. In the rough draft I did discuss shifter class spot but removed guess should have left it in. The intent and point attempted to make was to respectfully disagree with the statement that Druid dragons and RDD dragons are only "SLIGHTLY" different. They are apples to oranges.
Furthermore, many builds are difficult to level but well worth it once reach level 40.
Murphy's Law:
Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you expect.
And if anything can go wrong,
It will, at the worst possible moment.
Ghost, did we ever come up with another dragon-shape that would beat the hin pure druid? Well Shifter has useful stuff too, but I sure miss being a full caster.
Eldaquen wrote:Pure druids received another nerf: ability to cast hell ball and greater ruin was removed when in a shifted shape.
That was to fix a semi-related bug that could be abused to take on things like Draco solo. Remind me to add an exception for epics next week.
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
i agree that pure druid dragons are underpowered, giving them back the bioware trueseeing seems fitting, dragons should eat sds for breakfast. i dont think they should be made immune to crits though, this seems like a bit much.
so why not give pure druid dragons REAL true seeing at 40, would make up for some of the underpowered nature of the current pure druid dragon build. as it is, cross classed dragon builds have a lot more options although nowhere near the spellcasting power, personally i think the truesight would balance it out nicely.
The truth is just an excuse for those with a lack of imagination.
Amoenotep wrote:i still think everyone is just truefalse multi logging an entire server together
Tru3Fals3 wrote:i agree that pure druid dragons are underpowered, giving them back the bioware trueseeing seems fitting, dragons should eat sds for breakfast. i dont think they should be made immune to crits though, this seems like a bit much.
so why not give pure druid dragons REAL true seeing at 40, would make up for some of the underpowered nature of the current pure druid dragon build. as it is, cross classed dragon builds have a lot more options although nowhere near the spellcasting power, personally i think the truesight would balance it out nicely.
Twig agrees...hard to step arround what you cant see.. *grins*
Lokey wrote:Ghost, did we ever come up with another dragon-shape that would beat the in pure druid?
Hmmmm, I'm not a developer so I'm not to keen on the logistics that make things work. Would giving pure druids the radiant dragon's shape at 40th be to uber? Hmmmm, scratch that idea. We can't have a bunch of those things running around
Korr wrote "Elda though you propose "what am I to do with needing all that wisdom?!?!?!"." to set record straight...I did not write this so not sure why quoted as I had.
Murphy's Law:
Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you expect.
And if anything can go wrong,
It will, at the worst possible moment.
Brandobaris worte:
*looks at topic title* Pure Druid
Hasn't anyone figured it out why the Dev's don't fix things? The answer is simple, I'll put in apples and oranges terms.
The apples = If some actual ideas or suggestions were put forth in these types of threads, something might actually get done.
The oranges = No one likes staying on topic, if you wish to talk about multi class druid builds, RDD builds, or a my build is better than your build, things will never get done.
So in short, stay on the title's topic, and just maybe things might get fixed/changed.
_________________
I will attempt to stay on topic:
Wish to focus on the spells aspect of pure druid. The point of this post is to present druid spell modification idea to improve druids survivability to allow for caster druid and modification to offensive spell capability of the class.
As implemented now lvl 40 pure druid as a caster is very difficult possibly to point of impossible to play in pvp. Most spells are reflex save based which causes any opponent build with evasion or imp evasion immune to most of druids offensive attacks. Harm is of little use due to pure druid's low ab, assuming said druid was even able to get close enough to attempt harm spell due to low ac and lack of discipline. This is similar issue that plagues or plagued arcance casters, which were given reprieve when epic mages armor and epic warding were modified to improve AC and DR for arcane casting builds. Pure druid class would be more playable if druids received similar ac boast even if just alittle.
I suggest that a few spells be modified to this end and one other area will get to later.
First in order to keep possible druid spell modifications from carrying over to other caster classes, cleric mostly, that do not need a boast I suggest keeping changes to spells only available to druids. First wish to address is "Natures Balance"
Natures Balance:
Instead of the healing and damage it renders now, I believe the spell would be better suited to give druid more balance by surviving melee in order to cast. Not to make unhittable or unbeatable, but rather higher percentage chance of not being hit, instead of the almost garaunteed hit that presently exists today due to low ac.
I propose a Dodge AC component be added to Natures Balance applied to caster only, scaled to level and spell focuses. Perhaps:
Druid lvls 1-10 +1 dodge ac
Druid lvls 11-20 +2 dodge ac
Druid lvls 21-30 +3 dodge ac
Druid lvls 31-40 +4 dodge ac
Spell focus Transmutation: additional +1 Dodge AC
Greater Spell focus Transmutation: additional +2 Dodge AC*
Epic Spell focus Transmutation: additional +3 Dodge AC*
*not commulative, total including previous focus*
Duration for this portion of spell to be 10 rounds + (druid lvl)/2 + WIS Modifier.
Examples:
A lvl 9 druid with spell focus Transmutation would receive +2 Dodge AC.
A lvl 25 druid with Greater spell focus transmutation would receive +5 dodge AC.
A lvl 35 druid with Epic spell focus transmutation would receive +7 Dodge AC.
To keep this from carrying over to shifted forms, I also propose the spell be canceled on shift so not to overpower shapes.
Why is this needed. Caster druids AC is dissmal. Using Netya'nis as an example: she has AC of 54, wearing Death Chain armor +6, Guardian Greaves +6, Lumi's will +5, Girdle of defense +6 and Glimmerskin boots +5. She also spend 40 skill points in tumble for +4 ac from tumble ranks (cross class so only receives benefit of 20 in tumble). 54 AC is almost guaranteed she would be hit by any competent opponent build. Even against opponents with ab in 40's she is hit better than 50% of the time. If the above change is accepted her AC would improve by +4 as she is not focused in Transmutation, so AC of 58. 58 ac is not overpowered, would give pure druid class a chance to avoid few hits in Melee. In comparison, epic mage armor was changed to add +12 with no duration.
OFFENSIVE SPELLS CHANGE IDEAS:
FINGER OF DEATH:
To begin with propose slight modification to Finger of Death. This would benefit other caster builds not just druids. As implemented now if fort save is made victem suffers damage of 3d6 + 1 for every caster lvl. I request the damage be increased for every spell focus necro taken.
Spell focus Necro additional 1d6 to damage
Greater Spell focus Necro additional 2d6 to damage
Epic Spell focus necro additional 3d6 to damage
BLOOD FRENZY:
Instead of increasing STR and CON by +2, increasing will by +1 and reducing ac by -1 I propose modified to be more like cleric's aura of alignment just not as area but caster specific benefit.
No focuses scaled to lvl:
Druid lvls 1-10 +1 ab +1 regen
Druid lvls 11-20 +2 ab +2 regen 10% speed boast
Druid lvls 21-30 +3 ab +3 regen 20% speed boast
Druid lvls 31-40 +4 ab +4 regen 30% speed boast
Expamle:
lvl 10 druid with spell focus transmution would receive:
+2 to ab & +2 regen
Lvl 30 druid with greater spell focus transmutation would receive:
+5 ab, +5 regen & 30% speed boast
Lvl 40 druid with epic spell focus transmutation would receive:
+7 ab, +7 regen & 50% speed boast.
Why is this needed. A pure druid lacks sufficient AB to use harm as a viable offensive spell or use a melee wpn as fall back when spells are used up. Also this change would make a hardly used druid only spell useful and since caster specific would not overpower party members. To ensure does not overpower, I propose that clerics aura of alignment to NOT stack with this spell. Using Netya'nis as example: her ab is 35, no wpn focuses, holding +5 wpn with str modifier of 5. If this change was implemented her AB would increase to 39, which would allow her to use harm up to opponents with AC less than or equal to an AC of 59 and possibily use the wpn she wields.
QUILLFIRE:
Increase damage for the spell by removing the max cap of 8.
Propose:
2d8 + 1 point /2 levels acid
no save
SR does not help
Also propose spell focuses in Transmutation improve damage:
Spell focus transmutation additional +1d10 to damage
Greater spell focus transmutation additional +2d10 to damage
Epic spell focus transmutation additional +3d10 to damage
Also propose the spell's poison effect receive modification:
No spell focus:
DC vs fort: 10 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier if fail save then
1d6 reduction to STR
Spell focus Transmutation:
DC vs fort: 10 plus Druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier if fail save then 1d6 reduction to STR & CON
Greater spell focus transmutation:
DC vs fort: 10 plus Druid lvl/2 plus WIS Modifier if fail save then 1d6 reduction to STR, DEX & CON
Epic spell focus transmutation:
DC vs fort: 10 plus Druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier if fail save then
1d6 reduction to STR, DEX, CON & WIS
INFERNO:
Propose the damage of this spell be increased from present 2d6 fire damage to scale with lvl and improve if focus in transmutation:
no spell focuses: fire damage 2d6 plus druid lvl/2
Spell focus Transmutation: fire damage 3d6 plus druid lvl/2
Greater spell focus Transmutation: fire damage 4d6 plus druid lvl/2
Epic spell focus Transmutation: fire damage 5d6 plus druid lvl/2
ENTANGLE:
Propse the reflex save be changed to scale with lvl
no spell focus: 10 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier
Spell focus Transmutation: 12 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier
Greater spell focus Trans.: 15 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier
Epic spell focus Transmutation: 20 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS modifier
FLAME LASH:
propose the damage be increased and improved by spell focus:
No spell focus: 2d6 plus 1/6 for every 2nd druid lvl
Spell focus Evocation: above +10 damage
Greater spell focus evocation: above +15 damage
Epic spell focus evocation: above +20 damage
SPIKE GROWTH:
Change reflex save portion to: reflex vs. 10 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS Modifier plus 2 for every spell focus in Transmutation (+4 greater & +6 Epic). If make save then only 1/2 damage.
Increase damage to:
no spell focus: 2d4 plus druid lvl/2
Spell Focus Transmutation 2d6 plus druid lvl/2
Greater spell focus Transmutation 2d8 plus druid lvl/2
Epic spell focus Transmutation 2d10 plus druid lvl/2
INFESTATION OF MAGGOTS:
Change save to Fort vs. DC of 10 plus druid lvl/2 plus WIS Modifier plus 2 for each spell focus necromancy (focus +2, greater +4 and epic +6)
Change effect to CON, STR & DEX
Add damage component even if opponent saves to include:
no focus: Pierce damage 2d8 plus druid lvl/2
Spell Focus Necromancy: Pierce damage 3d8 plus druid lvl/2
Greater spell focus Necromancy: Pierce damage 4d8 plus druid lvl/2
Epic spell focus Necromancy: Pierce damage 5d8 plus druid lvl/2
These changes would help bring some rarely used spells to forefront, make druid class more fun to play, pvp to be more exciting/varied and pure druid caster build more balanced with Aetheria. By requiring spell focuses and tying to number of druid lvls taken, ensures that only the most dedicated and well thought out druid caster builds receive the most of the above benefits..
Murphy's Law:
Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you expect.
And if anything can go wrong,
It will, at the worst possible moment.
I would like to see the restrictions on the epic druid/shifter shape feats be removed or at least some classes added in beside just druid and shifter. This would add some more options to druids and shifters with the possibility of 4 attacks per round vs 3 and could add evasion or any number of things to help these classes out. In my option this would help balance things out a bit.
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: medium (20 meters)
Area of effect: super-colossal (20 meter radius)
Duration: instant
Save: reflex 1/2
Spell resistance: no
Drown currently ineffective.
As per the monster version.
Range: self (personal)
Save: fortitude
Spell resistance: no
Area of effect: large (5 meter radius)
Duration: instant
Description: The Druid can give up half of their hitpoints to attempt to drown all enemies in a large area near them. Any enemy who fails a fortitude saving throw will die.
DC if not able to be calculated off spell school should be 10+ Druid Level/2 + Wis Mod
In addition, If you were looking for a Pure Level 40 ability I would give a 40 Druid 100% immunity to the five elements (fire,cold,electricity, acid and sonic)
21 - Gaea's Blessing: The druid's weapon is granted an Enhancement bonus of Level / 5 + 2 and 1d4 random elemental damage.
22 - Gaea's Aura I: The druid receives a personal aura shield (glow green). The aura inflicts random elemental damage to an enemy which successfully strikes the druid in combat. The damage is 1d8 + the druids level/5
25 - Epic Barkskin I: The druid receives an additional +1 to their Natural AC.
28 - Gaea's Aura II: The druid receives a personal aura shield (glowing green). The aura inflicts random elemental damage. The damage is 1d8 + the druids level/4
30 - Epic Barkskin II: The druid receives an additional +1 to their Natural AC (+2 in total)
33 - Gaea's Aura III : The druid receives a personal aura shield (glowing green). The aura inflicts random elemental damage. The damage is 1d8 + the druids level/3
35 - Epic Barkskin III: The druid receives an additional +1 to their Natural AC (+3 in total)
38 - Gaea's Aura IV: The druid receives a personal aura shield (glowing green). The aura inflicts random elemental damage. The damage is 1d8 + the druids level/2
40 - Aspect of Nature: The druid has become one with nature and no longer is affected by the elements. The Druid received 100% immunity to Fire, Cold, Electricity,Acid and Sonic damage. Epic Barkskin IV: The druid receives an additional +1 to their Natural AC (+4 in total)
Ok not to just step out and bash what you all have said about the spells . . . the ideas I like. How they are implemented is WAY off from how EVERY spell in D&D/NWN works.
DC = 10 (base) + x (spell level) + y (ability modifier) + z (spell focuses)
I think you are all getting to a good point though, but less that spells need changed and MORE that they need to be used effectively. But has anyone noticed the most effective casters (mage/sorc or cleric) are not pure themselves? They all have other classes added in, instead of maybe trying to tweak what you cant. . . change what you can! If you want a dragon build a dragon if you want a caster, build a caster. Druids face the same barriers other casters play just with different spells. Perma-slow vine mine . . . ever think of how effective that could be in raiding? Thats just the tip of the iceberg
