ABOUT BIGBIES

[Daral0085]

To be fair, the only people who agree with the recent mage nerfs are the 80ac 70ab CoTs and Shifters.....So that leaves the other 66% of the server who really think it stinks (a majority I think it was a "squeaky wheel" type of situation, where the squeaky wheel just didn't want the other factions with mages that could survive their melee toons

I'd love to see an 80 AC, 70 AB shifter. I really, really would.

Silly AO, little do they know that the only "shifter" build that can hit 80 ac and 70 ab by itself is only buildable in AO.

One would hope, as per this thread of exaggerated grievances, that the devs would nerf it if it got built. Ahem. *squeak* *squeak* *squeak* *squeak* *squeak* *squeak*.

[Eldaquen]

The issue with spells, arcane and wisdom based alike, are the number of save boasting items that are available. The DC's themselves of spells could remain the same if the save properties on items were re-worked. There are so many that give bonuses to any one of the save types that most builders can fill a specfic save shortfall in almost any build.

Worried about death spells, no problem just wear the armor (+2), cloak (+2), amulet (+1), belt (+3 & +3), shield (+1), and helm (+4) that boast fort and/or vs death, for example. Add +16 to fort and vs death spells; that is why wail, finger of death and implosion are not as affective as they could be. Max DC for wail I believe is 48. Death ward spell adds another +4 vs death. Opponent wearing items to boast their fort and/or vs death would only need natural fort of 32 to be immune to any wail attempt. Add in spell craft save vs spells of for even a cross class build for an additional +4 and the opponent only needs natural fort of 28 to be immune. Don't forget the saver gets a d20 roll added to their save. So a build with natural fort of 18 could survive 50% of wail attacks if they wear the right equipment vs a dc 48 wail. Most dexers have fort saves in upper 20's before equipment bonuses are added.

Perhaps the caster's DC should also receive a d20 roll (or at least a d10) when determining who won the save roll (caster or saver).

[Amoenotep]

and the fact that casters stop progressing in dc lvls at lvl 20 doesn't help their power either

[Rufio]

I think the problem is in the system. The spells with the highest DCs are also the spells that you really don't want to fail, like instant death spells. Beef up casters DCs and suddenly they are killing people left and right with instant death spells. It would be interesting if there were spell options with even higher DCs than what is possible now, but with less severe consequences, like a high dc daze spell or something, but that would require an overhaul of the entire casting system.

[Lokey]

I toyed with rethinking spell dcs for ns5, don't see an easy cleanup without a hak. Something like BAB for spell dc is needed, that should probably follow avg save progression.

Relevant script functions are mostly hooked everywhere, it's not that big of a deal to do a sweeping change. The challenge is in what that change should be.

[Rogue2x]

I think that's my point......the people who agree that the mage nerfs brought a much-needed balance to the server are the same people who believe that cots and shifters are in no way overpowered and could in-fact use a power-boost to be able to fight mages.

I think it would be a good idea to pay attention to what you guys have been bringing to fight lately. When your raiding and defending party consists of 85% cots and shifters, 5% stunning fisters, and 5% clerics/bards, something is not right.*

Regardless, the point that the people who actually play mages are trying to make is that the AC was the only line of defense a mage had against that sort of attack. Whatever the server looked like when EMA was nerfed, the current environment needs some sort of protection for mages. Whether that's in the form of the old EMA, or even a +9/+10 EMA, or in Epic Warding that stops more than just 15/+8, mages need some help to survive in this environment.

*(The extra 5% is whatever SL toons happen to be on)

[Shamedmonkey]

Maybe you should build something other than dispel bait. Then it might be a bit easier.

EDIT: To be fair, I've always argued that Epic Warding shouldn't have ever been nerfed. It always should have been regular EMA and regular Warding.

[Rufio]

I don't think anyone ever said that shifters and CoTs need power boosts to fight mages. Also, most of the people that are saying that mages are just fine are the guys in FoN that also have mages that they pvp with.

[burrahobbit]

I think that's my point......the people who agree that the mage nerfs brought a much-needed balance to the server are the same people who believe that cots and shifters are in no way overpowered and could in-fact use a power-boost to be able to fight mages.

I think it would be a good idea to pay attention to what you guys have been bringing to fight lately. When your raiding and defending party consists of 85% cots and shifters, 5% stunning fisters, and 5% clerics/bards, something is not right.*

Regardless, the point that the people who actually play mages are trying to make is that the AC was the only line of defense a mage had against that sort of attack. Whatever the server looked like when EMA was nerfed, the current environment needs some sort of protection for mages. Whether that's in the form of the old EMA, or even a +9/+10 EMA, or in Epic Warding that stops more than just 15/+8, mages need some help to survive in this environment.

*(The extra 5% is whatever SL toons happen to be on)

I dont wanna burst your bubble here but we dont use CoT's nearly as often as you think. I giggle when i listen to the cot complaints when what we mainly use are rangers clerics and pdk's. The most pathetic part is you can make the same builds in your faction but you guys have lost your ability to be inventive. You focus on what you think you cant do and let the best part of your faction slip away. Its hilarious.

We dont have mages in NC or TC. That your suprised that we have lots of melee toons is silly. Of course there are CoT's and shifters in party. Not in the numbers you think but sure we have them and use them.

if your mage cant take a cot one on one then you you need to go to remedial mage playing class cause there is no excuse for it other than piss poor mage playing.

[Amoenotep]

ao can't make pdk's..so...yeah

[cRaZy8or5e]

From those of us who still play mages; they are difficult to play . . . [I had a lot of things to say here, but I couldn't figure out how to say it without being insulting] . . . but they don't need more AC.

Moreso than any other character a mage requires you to have a knowledge of who you are facing and how to attack them and how they will attack you. Then it's all spacing, seizing the initiative, and keeping your opponents off balance/incapacitated, hopefully long enough so that you can find a way to kill them or enable your party to kill them.

Expect to die a lot till you get the hang of what is going to work and what isn't. As a testament to that, my pure wizard, wearin lvl 16 gear, wielding a twisted maple staff (till mental took it, come on man, I got an invis dagger I'll trade you for it), that hasn't read any books, burned through 400k in gp raiding for what, 3 hours? last night? I died ALOT. But I had a lot of fun doing it, and I kept Deadeyes from chuggin a couple times, was able to incapacitate people and generally make a nuisance of myself. I even got a few solo kills when I could separate one of the defenders from the crowd. Generally I don't raid with a pure mage, ESPECIALLY when the defense outnumbers the raiders lol, but what started as me and Thorac lookin for trouble turned into a full on pvp-fest and once I started I didn't want to take a 30 minute break in order to change toons. Besides, it was a great opportunity to figure out how to make a pure wizard work under those conditions. By the end of the night I was pretty happy with how things went and felt like I was helping out my team, even if I was picking off stragglers at the edges of the melee. Granted all that I've just said only applies for a pure mage. There are a multitude of build options that allow you to easily cover the weaknesses that a pure mage has. The key is figuring out a strategy. When EMA went away, you had two options, you could do what you're doing now and try to make arguments to reinstate it, or you needed to accept the change and accept the new challenge of building and playing mages under a new paradigm.

Mages rule, Melee toons drool

[dethonlegs]

Whether that's in the form of the old EMA, or even a +9/+10 EMA, or in Epic Warding that stops more than just 15/+8, mages need some help to survive in this environment.

Unfortunately raising the issue of EMA with the devs will get you nowhere as the reason for the nurf (monks ac) still exists for them. It just so happens that the easiest fix also screwed with many builds out there and if mages suffered because of it, well bad luck. Don't bother using logic to argue a case - it's already been tried. I personally would prefer to have monks with high AC than have the "fix" as it's been implemented.

Regarding Epic Warding, I suppose the issue dev's face is that many mele builds also use it. Tanking one tanks the other. Not sure what can be done in this regard while the spell behaves as it does now.

[Rufio]

I know this isn't the first time I have said this, but my best 40 for pvp right now is a harper scout, so do whatever you want with shifters and CoT's, I'll just keep killing you all.

You know, really, I don't think our CoTs would really suffer much from nerfs because they are based on sound build principals. Even the ones that are built for divine wrath don't rely on it as a gimmick to survive, it is just a good buff. I find nerfs just tend to weed out the bad builds that use a gimmick to cover up weaknesses. The same applies for mages and EMA. There are tried and true ways to make builds with good AC without EMA and without sacrificing too much in the way of caster levels, and they can easily be applied to mage builds if AC is your goal.

[mining]

Also, happily nerf the crap out of Shifter AC, and we'll just start using a bigger hitting stick , screw the AC. Our builds will still work with 60 AC. They might not win quite so many melee fights, but they will still slaughter poorly built melee toons.
Of the NC/TC builds I'm working on/have right now, I have (not saying I'm a typical TC/NC player, just pointing out what I use):

Gold (TSS), a slightly flawed Dragon Shifter that would have been far better as a pure druid.
Rozsudek {FoN}, an imploder with motto "I might not kill the best builds. But I kill the bottom 95% of toons." Roz doesn't smash everything to a pulp. But he does kill a good solid 80-90% of builds sooner or later. His worst enemy? 2 toons on him at once, being counterspelled, or getting whacked by a mage.
Darren 'the ninja' TSS. Its a HiPSer, and not a great one at that.
Sancreed Broda (TSS) The edodging, 80-82 AC rogue kobold. I've done a fair few fights with him, and I've won just under half. Despite that amazing AC, he gets slaughtered beyond imagining the moment I get into a multi person fight where the enemy has a mage. IGMS, bigbys, are brutal on shifters especially. I've said this more often than my friends like (and am likely copping some flak for it) but its true. And some PWnD mages (notably Bakura and Ipomoea) (among others) are certainly starting to utilise it.
Blessed One of FoN - despite what people tell me, its not a CoT, its a paladin. Should be fun, but I don't dare say it'll kill like a good bane build would.
Little Red Raiding Hood FoN - this build boils down to the NC/TC adaption of the str based ranger/bard/RDD, with, if I do say so myself, some tweaks that should cause brutal damage, although having crap AC. Only level 3 now, but anyway.

One key feature of all of my builds is that they can cause damage. I will never, ever, be convinced to make a toon thats light on damage. Maybe, someday, I'll make a hide based toon with lowish damage, but that'll only be for its non melee utilities.
It might seem small to have damage, but its why shifters and CoTs seem so ridiculous to you guys- they get AC and damage- maybe AB too depending on how high damage is. It is actually possible to get much the same AB, AC and damage (if not more) as on a shifter on an AO build. You can go ranger, and duplicate builds like Sebastian or Akuma, or rogue, and duplicate builds like Sancreed, and Mr. Crow.

Your comparison of 85% shifters and COTs just doesn't hold up. In reality, I would guesstimate that we have around 20% clerics, 30% HiPsers, 5% bards, 10% ridiculous HS toons, 10% other ranger toons, 25% shifters and CoTs.

If I were to make a similar comparison of YOUR fighting force...
~ 5% RDD/druid dragons, 2% elementals, 10% your favourite CoN toon, 0.01% melee RDDs, 20% mages, 13% bards and clerics, and 49.99% pure fighters and barbs. Unless your raiding, then add ~2% monks.

[Merrip]

lol I just love how a simple question about bigbies turns into a "discussion" about builds and who abuses what etc.

Poor fella probably scared him away for life (And I mean the original poster by that if anyone remembers lol)