Maybe unpopular but...

Girl · Post by **Girl** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:35 pm

+ Hide cloak would make sense.

deathdearler1 · Post by **deathdearler1** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:05 pm

yes i would like to see some cloaks with different things besides + to cold, electricty, fire, perform, charisma, or sorc spells.

Marah Telexus · Post by **Marah Telexus** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:45 am

My lvl 32 monk has 35dex, 40dex if i get a good cats grace roll, so padded armor isnt so great. Nevertheless, i'm off to garagoth to check this armor out.

Marah Telexus · Post by **Marah Telexus** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:28 pm

Ok, after spending a couple hours in garagoth killing guards and such, I've found only 1 armor with +hide, and its +5hide padded armor. The sharif in city hall dropped it. So, is there some mistake on the "+7 armor" or am i looking in the wrong place.

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:33 pm

Hope none of you figure out the +hide/+ms boots...

Marah Telexus · Post by **Marah Telexus** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:14 pm

You mean the crafted boots? Yeah, know about that one. +6hide/ms and +6 dex. By wearing these boots you dont get the +3 ac from dodge that you get on the Imbued Mith boots, so wearing the crafted boots gives +hide/ms but a -3 or -2 ac (depends on if you have an odd or even base dex) as a consequence.
So, knowing that hide is crippled on this server, due to the lack of good hide items, the surpluss of good spot items (ones that dont take away 3 ac from the wearer), true seeing, and the fact that you are not warned if a hostile character spots you, I would never wear those boots.

Hide is WORTHLESS

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:17 pm

Let's try this: what is the highest spot one can get, in the long run? i.e. not short term buffs...

[edit]Lets also add in realistically, too ... seriously, who takes Alertness (Without being a shifter) or Skill Focus: Spot?[/edit]

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:48 pm

My 36th lev cleric took Epic Skill Focus in spot around 27th lev (when I took 1 rogue level). I did so because I felt that sneaks were a weakness I needed to protect against (I have yet to not spot a sneak). In fact, I would plan on any pure spellcaster of mine to take Spot and the Epic Skill Focus in it around 30th lev for this reason (perhaps I don't need Epic Skill Focus Spot now since I've realized hiders can't really hide all that well). Here's what I got at 27th lev with 30 skill points in spot (taken at 27th lev as a rogue):

30 + 10 WIS (I'm a 26th cleric/1 rogue with 24 WIS base + 6 ammy = 30) + 10 Epic Skill Focus = 50 unbuffed...

As soon as I'm done resting, I always cast True Seeing and Maxed Owl's Wisdom which both last a long time at my level...so
50 + 20(True Seeing) + 2 (Extra from Owl's) = 72

If I ever get into a situation where my cleric can't see a hider, I use my 1 SKILL in UMD!!!!! (the check uses the Spellcraft skill rather than my UMD skill here...check that out...I posted that as a bug in early Oct) to cast an arcane Clairvoyance scroll for +10...so
72+10 = 82

The hider must have a 103 Hide for it to be impossible for me to detect him/her. Even if they have a 94 in Hide, I will Spot them 36/400 times or roughly 10% of the time...at which time one well placed spell and they're toast...

Furthermore, if I think I'm going up against a very good hider, I can use my +7 Spot Helm to give me +89 to my check after all the other buffs. Basically I think hiders have it unfair...they need to land most attacks while being hidden to have any chance (even if they hit 10-15 times, the spellcaster need only hit them with a spell once).

As soon as I take another rogue lev at 37th, 38th, 39th, or 40th...my max spot could be 102...

I just think hiders need better gear (stuff that doesn't take away their DEX to AC) and maybe a +5 to max attainable Hide over someone's max attainable Spot...oh and throw that warning in for them that they've been spotted, otherwise they'll continue to walk while being beat to death...

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:01 pm

Forgot to mention about the UMD check using the spellcraft check: I use 1 skill point in UMD coupled with two rings of +5 UMD = +11.

The +11 means scrolls no longer appear "red" to me and I can attempt to UMD them. Unfortunately, the DC to use them successfully is overcome by my spellcraft score (around 30ish) instead of correctly using the UMD score...

Thus any character with 1 UMD and high points in Spellcraft will use their Spellcraft check when casting a scroll not native to their class. This is a bug and should be fixed...

I should also state that any class (non-WIS based) can attain the Spot scores above (-7 of course...assuming a base 10 in WIS that is never increased from +1 ability every 4 levs) by having 1 rogue lev around 27th and 30 skill points in Spot, along with Epic Skill Focus Spot, and enough in UMD to cast True Seeing/Clairvoyance/ and Owl's Wisdom or Insight scrolls...

-Chronepsis- · Post by **-Chronepsis-** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:11 pm

Well seeing you have high wis you will have higher spot then most ppl,but think of a fighter or non caster character trying to spot any sd.Specially seeing a ranger sd can reach 110 plus hide easy enough,most ppl dont go ranger sd,they do rogue sd for damage,but suffer the hide bonuses a ranger gets.So if you add to much hide etc,you will have rangers reaching 120 hide etc easy,so maybe making a job in shadow legion,where most rogue sd's are from,plus assassins,which gives hide,would make more sense.Either way non caster classes get screwed again if to much hide is added,but they usually do anyway

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:13 pm

Finally, b4 folks get on the "bash the UMD bug exploiter" bandwagon, I should state that my char: 34th clr/1 rog/1 monk actually has 30 ranks in UMD which I put in at 27th lev...the post above shows what one could do to attain max spot with 31 skill points and a feat...

Unfortunately, in testing with other chars, I've discovered the UMD bug. Made me mad I wasted 29 skill points in UMD when I could've put that towards something else...

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:15 pm

Please explain to me how a ranger/sd build can attain high 110 in hide? Camoflage and Mass Camoflage do not stack...Furthermore the ranger only gets Hide bonuses outside...

Any non-wis based char can acheive max spot of 95 at 40th or 82 at 30th (my cleric's WIS only accounts for +7 to +10 over other folks possible spot).

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:22 pm

He is correct.

Camo + One with the Land + Skill focuses + Trackless Step + gear (imagine that) can easily overcome the figures your cleric has ... and at a much lower level.

The defense of not using the +hide gear was that it took from AC; what good is AC if you are unable to be seen?

The reason I said not to use those cheap UMD tactics is that it can be assumed the hider has 1 UMD and can dispell your temp buff. Therefore, it can be negated.

...Not to mention that all it takes is 1 unseen hit and you are on your back, open to more hits...

Hide does not need buffing. You simply have not faced a well-build shadowdancer.

Holghask · Post by **Holghask** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:49 pm

Ok...let me attempt to add up Hide for a 40th lev Halfling character with 38 ranger/1 rogue/1 SD assuming they take all epic feats as Great Dexterity save 1 for Epic Skill Focus Hide.

Base DEX=20 at level 1 (at 40 this should be DEX=42 due to +10 from +1/4 levs and 6 Great Dexterities along with +6 DEX boots). So...
with a bunch of feats and spells and adding the DEX of +1 from being in LA faction and completing the messenger quests...:
43 (ranks) + 4 (halfling) + 16 DEX (43 in DEX if in LA) + 3 (Skill Focus) + 10 (Epic Skill Focus) + 2 (Stealthy feat) = 78 in Hide...

Adding the Hide items flailer mentioned (assuming they don't take anything away from this char's skill checks) +7 for armor and +6 for boots (assuming boots exist that give +6 to DEX and + 6 to Hide) means:
78+13=91

Adding Camoflage(+10) and One with Land (+3):
91+10+3=104

Trackless step only works outside but let's add it anyways (+4)
104+4 = 108

Finally add a lucky Cat's Grace scroll or potion (+5 to your DEX = +3 to modifier) and:
108+3 = 111

How can one get near 110 even at lower levs (at 30th this should be 98 with 3 less Great DEX...the non-WIS char listed above should have 82 at 30th or 92 if WIS based)? Not to be snotty about this, but I still am unconvinced since I have yet to see the +7 armor. Also about that knockdown/disarm/called shot attempt: my cleric has 1 monk lev and took epic skill focus discipline and has two +5 discipline rings...never been knocked down by a Player(Fighter/Weapon Master or Dragon Shape yet with 65 in Discipline)...What's to prevent any char from taking one class to give them high discipline? Furthermor multiple crippling strikes are worthless when facing spellcasters in general since if they are smart, they are oftentimes no where near their max encumberance loads...my cleric tries to stay well below 80 pounds of my 200 pound max for this reason...

So please explain to me where + more to Hide will come from...assuming the ranger is outdoors...anyone else agree with me that Hide sucks?

Not being a ranger means -4 to the max. Even being +6 to an opponents Spot (98 Hide vs 92 Spot) results in the hider being seen waaay too often...please at least add a message to the hider stating to them they've been spotted?

Finally, the max spots attainable (82 for any non-WIS 30th lev with 1 class at 30 that has spot and UMD as a class skill, or 92 for WIS based (not even taking Great Wisdoms)) are easier to reach since any race can attain these vs. the max Hides...to reach the highest Hides you need a Halfling with at least 1 lev of ranger...

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:52 pm

Holghask wrote:If I ever get into a situation where my cleric can't see a hider, I use my 1 SKILL in UMD!!!!! (the check uses the Spellcraft skill rather than my UMD skill here...check that out...I posted that as a bug in early Oct) to cast an arcane Clairvoyance scroll for +10...so
72+10 = 82

I wrote:Camo + One with the Land + Skill focuses + Trackless Step + gear (imagine that) can easily overcome the figures your cleric has ... and at a much lower level.

Again, I wrote:The reason I said not to use those cheap UMD tactics is that it can be assumed the hider has 1 UMD and can dispell your temp buff. Therefore, it can be negated.

Don't get me wrong, clerics are one of the best classes to spot with (third only to Bard and the obvious Druid) ... but you seem to be missing key aspects of what I wrote. Please read more carefully next time.

You listed a spot of 72 for your cleric, which is pretty solid. But I'd take my 50% chances and say a hider would only need 83 to beat your spot sufficiently enough to hit hard and run. I have seen a lvl 25 ranger with 84 hide before... and remember, you are lvl 36...