Spike Growth, Entangle, and Vine Mine

[mining]

Limited KDs is a bad idea. See Burras posts and the fact its way less potent than stuff like disarm.

Secondly, you know whats good about KD? You need to spam it, and it drops 4 AB from attacks. So yeah, it already has a cost.

[frogofpeace]

haha - run away, mage!

[Daral0085]

And if you make it meaningful, druid dragons get ridiculous.

This is definitely a complication of trying to make druid casters worthwhile. How do you make a druid caster worthwhile without making a druid dragon IMBA server destroyers? Of course it's possible in theory, but there are a lot of ways you could go wrong. Namely, by making a pure 40 druid both a strong caster and an amazing melee presence. Yes, there will be build differences between a focused caster druid and a focused druid dragon, the devs just need to make sure that someone can't build a focused druid dragon and get tons of caster doom and destruction. Or conversely, focus as a caster (with the aforementioned doom and destruction to rain upon their foes) and get a formidable druid dragon.

From what I know, all you really need to get a decent druid dragon is: 1) 25 dex for blinding, 2) improved crit: unarmed, 3) dragon shape. And for kicks, 4) hellball.

Now if you give druids self-haste, that would negate point #1, and #4 would be taken by a caster druid anyway. So really the only thing you want for a decent dragon is IC and dragon shape. Others might add energy resist, stunning fist, etc, whatever. But the fact is, dragon shape is a pretty low commitment bar if you have 30 wisdom. And druid casters would want to max their wisdom too, so once again dragon shape really doesn't demand a whole lot that you wouldn't have in a normal druid caster.

[mining]

Thats true.

I suppose it could be made non-effective to a druid with dragon shape.

Also, druid dragons don't get very viable offenses as casters.

[weasel423]

Limited KDs is a bad idea.

so they will probably do it

[Amoenotep]

i'm still pushing for an events plugin that will let us limit any feat used skill ie: hips, kd, disarm, stun fist, your momma

just to keep ppl from mash spamming it constantly...but it would probably be like 1/round or something

[mining]

i'm still pushing for an events plugin that will let us limit any feat used skill ie: hips, kd, disarm, stun fist, your momma

just to keep ppl from mash spamming it constantly...but it would probably be like 1/round or something

imo KD should stay as it is... Else it can't do a job at all.

[Mixtli]

Building for a mele dragon and building for a caster druid are two completely different things.

One can build:

1. Only for Dragon shape, forget about offensive spells.
2. Druid caster with a dragon shape - a combination that doesn't excel at either, you simply can't. Tricky to play with the unshifting.
3. A Druid caster - in which case you will not be a pure class druid, and so you do not get dragon shape.

Have no fear of a pure dragon-shape-druid-caster getting much better with better druid spells. They dont have time to cast them.

[Rufio]

mix is right in that a good druid caster will likely never have dragon shape, because they need to multiclass for skills like discipline, tumble, and spot. Discipline is the big one there as a pure druid caster will always be kd bait. Also, shifting really messes with spell slots, which is a pain. it would be possible to have a pure duid with focuses on casting and dragon shape, but it isn't a best-of-both-worlds scenario. on the other hand, giving druids a haste spell would benefit dragons as they would no longer have to worry about building for blinding speed. The solution I see would be just make it so the haste dispels itself when the druid shifts.

I also don't think there is need for a kd limit. Like mining said, it is -4 ab to attempt a kd, so you are already sacrificing your hit chance to attempt a kd. Also, if you build right, you can make anything with discipline as a class skill nearly impossible, or completely impossible to kd. My dexer bard has 104 discipline. Spam KD against him all day, I don't mind a bit, you'll never kd him, and you would just be hurting your chances of hitting him.

[Amoenotep]

yeah your right...spamming it constantly on ever attack waiting for a crit to kd isn't too bad

[Mixtli]

To make druid casters worth playing, there are 2 options:

- Give them haste somehow, so they can use DC based spells

- Improve some non-DC based spells so you can make blinding speed druid casters

The second option is possible right now with ice storm and inferno. Only problem is, a cleric with a magic/sun domain is better (also, can take travel domain and get even better). There should be a few more spells in it so one chooses a druid over a cleric. Right now, only RP can justify that choice.

[Rufio]

yeah your right...spamming it constantly on ever attack waiting for a crit to kd isn't too bad

A critical hit when making a KD attempt does not auto-KD opponents.

[Twiggy]

mix is right in that a good druid caster will likely never have dragon shape, because they need to multiclass for skills like discipline, tumble, and spot. Discipline is the big one there as a pure druid caster will always be kd bait. Also, shifting really messes with spell slots, which is a pain. it would be possible to have a pure duid with focuses on casting and dragon shape, but it isn't a best-of-both-worlds scenario. on the other hand, giving druids a haste spell would benefit dragons as they would no longer have to worry about building for blinding speed. The solution I see would be just make it so the haste dispels itself when the druid shifts.

I also don't think there is need for a kd limit. Like mining said, it is -4 ab to attempt a kd, so you are already sacrificing your hit chance to attempt a kd. Also, if you build right, you can make anything with discipline as a class skill nearly impossible, or completely impossible to kd. My dexer bard has 104 discipline. Spam KD against him all day, I don't mind a bit, you'll never kd him, and you would just be hurting your chances of hitting him.

kd limit is stupid. it's a fighters only defense against mages and spell casters. BTW a druid caster would be in the same boat as a wizard caster. You can be effective with a pure wizard. SO what if ur KD bait, that's the point. Wiz's are kd bait. but so should all casters be. Also let's say druid casters get a boost, but they also take dragon shape. What is stopping them from casting a whole bunch of powerful spells from the back then shifting into an uber dragon guy? people already say that dragons are tough to beat. Add in some upgraded spells and that's a world of hurt. also getting 25 dex and 30 wisdom is pretty hard.


also mixtli
1. the reason why dragon shape auto dismisses offensive spells is cause they suck at 40. and u cannot cast as a dragon, so people forego casting and just shapechange and wait for people to come.
2.as of right now that would be correct. but give the caster auto quicken and some devastating spells (that is the whole point of this thread) they can cast/spam some good damaging spells then when it is done or someone is charging them they can shift into dragon shape and do some pwnage
3. this post is so that there is a reason to make a pure druid caster.

4. if there is a -party there is plenty of time to cast. especially if the druid spams some movement hindering spells then spams some damaging spells, then some more movement speed hindering then some damage then when he is spent shifts into dragon shape.

pure mages don't need disc cause they have bigs/timestop/bigs/slow/ w/e movement speed/stop spell so they can stop you then proceed to spam damaging spells at you. druids have no good damaging spells, earthquake is not party friendly (last i checked at least) and they cannot hinder you getting to them. plus most of their spells (minus 4) are vulnerable to SR. most high lvl mobs have SR to compete against wiz's. and that blows the usefullness of druid casters out of the water. remove SR from druids, raise the DC of their spells to be in the 40's, lower the damage to be competitive, and give them some movement speed hindering spells and a kickass summon, that is better than what clerics and wiz's can get. (but it has to be an animal, so like manbearpig) something that has Spot, good ab, nice ac, can kd but is vulnerable to some damage type. that way you have a nice druid caster without worrying about him changing into a dragon after he is done beating you to death with his summon and spells. *takes breath* I think that covers it. Most people are saying "bah you don't have to worry about druid casters cause of A,B and C" but what they are forgetting is if druids are changed then people do have to worry about A, B, and C. Mainly making it so they cannot change into a dragons after molesting you with movement speed/damage spells. or having the summon beat you to death while the druid is slowing you and running away to cast some more spells/ slow you some more.

As of right now though a druid cannot do that. SO that leaves a dragon druid.


what would be nice though, is having the stats that you get from shifting add onto your already established stats, instead of giving you a set stat spread. Would make for some more interesting builds, as not every dragonshape would be the same. Or whatever shape it is you are shifting into.

[Bargeld]

kd limit is stupid.

Wow, what an opening statement... what were you saying before about only responding in kind once someone starts it? And you wonder why people start with you.

Already stated here:

...
Also, shifting really messes with spell slots, which is a pain.
...

And my finale:

earthquake is not party friendly (last i checked at least) and they cannot hinder you getting to them

Earthquake is an instant KD on most fighters and melee types. How does that not hinder them. Just hilarious.

How many druids have you played here twiggy?

[weasel423]

kd limit is stupid. it's a fighters only defense against mages and spell casters.

You could also say "Stunning fist limit is stupid. it's a monk's only defense against mages and spell casters"

You could also say "Assassination attempt limit is stupid. it's an assassin's only defense against mages and spell casters"

Oh wait, none of the above examples (including Twiggy's) is correct because none of the described abilities is a "defense"... they are all for offense.