I'd like Paladin

[Rufio]

Sounds like you are making up numbers to me

70 average damage on a flail isn't something I just pulled out of the air. If you take the average roll of every damage die on talisids flail and assume +18 str, it is 70 damage. More is possible (ava, flame weapon, bard song, divine might) and all but flame weapon is avaliable to the dragon. I have seen cha based cleric RDD builds that go over 100 damage per hit using divine might and ava scrolls.

I went and looked at some of my builds that are identical to what you were citing:

I have a str based wood elf RDD ranger written up with blinding speed that gets 66 ab with just aid.

No way you are getting 67 ab with a str/dex blinding speed heavy flail weapon master with just an AVA scroll, 65 ab absolute most from my calculations.

A str/dex hybrid CoT is possible, but you are looking at capping your ab around 63-65. A RDD hybrid will max out comfortably higher with party buffs.

If you want a RDD power build, do a melee cleric. No melee clerics even come close to what a RDD cleric can do. I have one that is hitting 67 ab, 77 ac, and 105 spot self buffed (115 capped spot party buffed) while str based. Those numbers are really good even for your average melee dexer. Getting that on a str based fully auto-quickened caster is just insane.

[mining]

I'm not getting mad whatsoever - just don't like blatant misinformation.

30 lets make it 29 since i prefer to go 29 pal 1 sorc 10 rdd, 23 str mod? no. I'm going for blinding speed so its a 16 str mod.
how the hell are you calculating ab? you gotta redo everything. And no, we don't like half ogre, better an elf to spot.
And no ab is just your self buffed ab. no bard song no thanks.

Earth gen no thanks no thanks. we want elf

I remind you about blinding speed again because in the meanwhile you might have forgot it.

Well, if you go 29/1/10, then you get 2 more epic feats, so you can push two more great strengths - was taking EWF and Armor Skin in standard epic feats.
If you like Blinding Speed for 16 str mod and... what, 14 dex mod, then you get WAY more AC than previously stated.

10 base 05 nat 05 def 04 tumble 02 AS 06 armor 09 shield 02 BS 10 DS 05 boots 04 RDD = 62. +14 dex? 76 AC.
Get song, go to 79 AC.
ABwise, thats 71 self buffed, 75 party buffed. I'd rather have that then str CoTs 72? self buffed, 72 party buffed, for example.

Let me put it this way: The build I was basing this off is Earth Gen, 25/5/10, thought 29/1/10 works out the same. It has max base str, and ups str at every available point. It takes 4 great strengths, armor skin, epic fort, and Prowess in feat levels. Additionally, it takes EWF in the spare paladin level. Its build as a raw hitter, not as an AC tank, but it still has tier 2 AC (~73-77).

You, otoh, want a 29 paladin / 1 sorc / 10 RDD with good spot, blinding speed, good AC, good AB, good str based damage and to use a non +8 weapon. Oh, and godly saves.
That's always going to be a hard nut to crack.

Edited to add: Going straight dexxer paladin 29 / 1 / 10 isn't bad either, 18 dex as opposed to 16 str, so like 67 AB. 4 more dex mod too, so 80 self AC. And 12 buffed str mod vs like 16 (apparently) on your hybrid idea.

[Adventurer#1337]

"70 average damage on a flail isn't something I just pulled out of the air. If you take the average roll of every damage die on talisids flail and assume +18 str, it is 70 damage. More is possible (ava, flame weapon, bard song, divine might) and all but flame weapon is avaliable to the dragon. I have seen cha based cleric RDD builds that go over 100 damage per hit using divine might and ava scrolls."

You are saying exactly what i'm saying flail does more damage, as well as halberd and shyte. Divine shyte has 100 base damage and 400 crits. Those Rdd builds were not hitting anyone with the right shield. Again, put away rdd shifter, it sucks.


"I have a str based wood elf RDD ranger written up with blinding speed that gets 66 ab with just aid.
"

With int dex str and wis books +2, a wild elf gets 30 str 25 (or 26) dex
14 wis 16 int 14 con. Ab is 30 +4 +2 +16 +8 +2 +1= 63. You are so lucky to get more? Gratz

"No way you are getting 67 ab with a str/dex blinding speed heavy flail weapon master with just an AVA scroll, 65 ab absolute most from my calculations."

Ops! Let's bet a +4 book that i know how to build a 67 ab with ava wm with blinding speed focused in hflail and scimitar with a +2 int +2 dex +2 str.

"A str/dex hybrid CoT is possible, but you are looking at capping your ab around 63-65. A RDD hybrid will max out comfortably higher with party buffs."

Except you get dr saves feats spot, damage, everything way better. I like cots its one of my favorite class. *Laughs at daral*…

"If you want a RDD power build, do a melee cleric. No melee clerics even come close to what a RDD cleric can do. I have one that is hitting 67 ab, 77 ac, and 105 spot self buffed (115 capped spot party buffed) while str based. Those numbers are really good even for your average melee dexer. Getting that on a str based fully auto-quickened caster is just insane."

It's the difference between theory and practice you ain't getting: You have one or you planned one with "calculations" ?
I've asked around, many people considered this build but they don't build it because its too dispellable.
Needs 5 +2 books to have a 63 ab 76 ac 37 fort drow lets say focused in rapier. 76 ac for 50 seconds. Looks "ok It's not too bad" untill you see how dispellable is, that you cant even run trough amazons without getting 100% stripped of your buffs.




"You, otoh, want a 29 paladin / 1 sorc / 10 RDD with good spot, blinding speed, good AC, good AB, good str based damage and to use a non +8 weapon. Oh, and godly saves.
That's always going to be a hard nut to crack."

There are harder nuts to crack… It's variety

[mining]

Note: If you say "BLAH IS DISPELLABLE", doesn't that mean every non 32+ caster is useless?

And yet, I see people using builds with WAY less caster levels than that very successfully. Even some with sub 10 .

As far as str/dex hybrid -

Lets see 29 BAB, 16 str mod, tops, 07 WM, 04 feats, 07 weapon, 1 blinding, 03 AVA => 67
That's pushing envelopes, though - doubt you can make a sensible build that way.

You are saying exactly what i'm saying flail does more damage, as well as halberd and shyte. Divine shyte has 100 base damage and 400 crits. Those Rdd builds were not hitting anyone with the right shield. Again, put away rdd shifter, it sucks.

No, it really doesn't. AC, AB and HP AND good damage... is not a bad combo.

[Midterm]

dalai lama drama makes my life at work enjoyable

And so that this post isn't entirely a troll post:

You can't E-genasi and Pally at the same time. I had that problem with Roy Greenhilt - I wanted to make him LG to make him follow OOTS lore.

[Rufio]

25 caster levels is a lot better than a ranger, CoT, any many other melee builds that you can be dispell just by looking at it the wrong way.

I was basing the WM calculations off of crazyhorse's hybrid WM. You'd need 25 dex and 30 str for 67 ab, and that is a tall order without using +4 books. Wild elf or githyanki can start with 18 str/dex reasonably and then get 20 with books. you'd then need to spend at least 5 of your 7 epic general feats on ability increases, which means you are going to have uncomfortably low fort, low will, or low discipline and no opportunity to focus on any extra skills like spot. Also, needing 13 int minimum means you will probably have a low con score unless you start with 16 dex or 16 str, which means the build will be quite easy to kill due to having a relatively low ac and no extra damage reduction. you will probably want more than 13 int anyways to take advantage of any rogue skills like spot and umd. Without +4 books, you will have run your build into the ground trying to get a few extra points of ab. Most hybrid builds I look at only get around 26 str due to the high demands of going that route.

[Daral0085]

Yes, I'm building a hybrid that caps +AB at something like 62 or 63. It doesn't have WM though, and has like 27 BAB. Getting high AB on a hybrid build is very hard, almost by definition, since you're perforce splitting your stats and you have a hard minimum dex requirement.

[Midterm]

I'm beginning to think that Paladin is a secret prestige class

Dang, those boys in NC get 3 prestige classes

[frogofpeace]

but no rogue

[Adventurer#1337]

"Lets see 29 BAB, 16 str mod, tops, 07 WM, 04 feats, 07 weapon, 1 blinding, 03 AVA => 67
That's pushing envelopes, though - doubt you can make a sensible build that way.
"
6 from wm, 30 bab, full tumble. pretty easy #OT//


quote: "dalai lama drama makes my life at work enjoyable

And so that this post isn't entirely a troll post:

You can't E-genasi and Pally at the same time. I had that problem with Roy Greenhilt - I wanted to make him LG to make him follow OOTS lore.
"

I guess too much deving makes people forget the real thing
I'd make drow anyway just to not waste spot on rdd.

"25 caster levels is a lot better than a ranger, CoT, any many other melee builds that you can be dispell just by looking at it the wrong way.
"

except that a dispelled cleric rdd lose 14 ab while a cot lose only 2 ab.
It's not looking at it the wrong way, people need a practical thing to deal with. Try leveling your Cleric RDD in Goblins and tell me how it goes. Ops there are no cleric RDD around, there might be a reason.
People want something reliable. A palemaster cleric with only 19 cleric levels gets a dc 38 to be dispelled as they had 27 cleric levels.


"I was basing the WM calculations off of crazyhorse's hybrid WM. You'd need 25 dex and 30 str for 67 ab, and that is a tall order without using +4 books. Wild elf or githyanki can start with 18 str/dex reasonably and then get 20 with books. you'd then need to spend at least 5 of your 7 epic general feats on ability increases, which means you are going to have uncomfortably low fort, low will, or low discipline and no opportunity to focus on any extra skills like spot. Also, needing 13 int minimum means you will probably have a low con score unless you start with 16 dex or 16 str, which means the build will be quite easy to kill due to having a relatively low ac and no extra damage reduction. you will probably want more than 13 int anyways to take advantage of any rogue skills like spot and umd. Without +4 books, you will have run your build into the ground trying to get a few extra points of ab. Most hybrid builds I look at only get around 26 str due to the high demands of going that route."

//OT2# Still saying that build i mentioned aeons ago can't be built?
67 ab with hflail, 66 with scimitar, 65 ac with shield, enough fort to make you waste all your implodes. In any faction but one. 3 +2 books. End of OT//

[Daral0085]

Ops there are no cleric RDD around, there might be a reason.

Statements like this deserve to be flamed. What you're saying has no connection to reality.

[Bargeld]

Ok, I suppose I've laughed silently for long enough. Time to give my input.

"Lets see 29 BAB, 16 str mod, tops, 07 WM, 04 feats, 07 weapon, 1 blinding, 03 AVA => 67
That's pushing envelopes, though - doubt you can make a sensible build that way.
"
6 from wm, 30 bab, full tumble. pretty easy #OT//

Tumble adds to AB? Awesome.

except that a dispelled cleric rdd lose 14 ab while a cot lose only 2 ab.

14 ab? If you have 30 bab, then you only get 2 or 3 from favor and 3 from prayer/btide/ava. You lose 5 ab. You can recast favor again for half that back. Use one of the 5-7 normal favors, or 5-7 of your extended ones... it should have more than enough to spare. If anything, you will lose 2 more ab from losing the str buff.

Try leveling your Cleric RDD in Goblins and tell me how it goes. Ops there are no cleric RDD around, there might be a reason.

Goblin area is junk now, don't use that example. And the reason there are no clc RDDs that we see is because Twig recruits everyone to TC, and so there are no players in any of the other factions.

People want something reliable. A palemaster cleric with only 19 cleric levels gets a dc 38 to be dispelled as they had 27 cleric levels.

This one totally lost me.

//OT2# Still saying that build i mentioned aeons ago can't be built?
67 ab with hflail, 66 with scimitar, 65 ac with shield, enough fort to make you waste all your implodes. In any faction but one. 3 +2 books. End of OT//

Let me guess... SL?

I could continue with the ridiculousness that is happening here and address some of the older posts and claims, but instead, I will slide back into the shadows and continue laughing. Build what you've described here and bring it to the battlefield, then we can see how much difference 2 ab makes on paper.

[mining]

Yeesh, I'm not the only one to forget things like that - githz paladin shows up a hell of a lot too .

Also, dear god jesus, if 2 dispel DC makes that much of a difference... Go 29 cleric / 1 bard / 10 RDD and sacrifice 4 AC for 4 caster levels and better feat progression.

Its not raw stats that make battleclerics a beast (and if they are high, then they'll slaughter anything on low pop because you can outmelee a melee buffed, and have more buffs than most enemies have dispels) but those glorious heals, hastes, slows, dispels, party buffs... the list goes on.

[Daral0085]

And the reason there are no clc RDDs that we see is because Twig recruits everyone to TC, and so there are no players in any of the other factions.

The funny thing is that despite Twig's efforts, we actually have people in TNC build cross-faction to create cleric/RDDs because they're so freaking strong in PvM. I'm fairly sure myevan built one, twigzilla is (I think?) an RDD dragon of some sort, not sure if it's cleric though, and I know maou built a clc/rdd although to be fair he's not exactly a TNC player, but he's definitely not an AO/RK player. On a loosely related note, I know that both Mining and Midterm have built sorcs out of AO.

Of course, we don't use them for pvp, because we're TNC, so that's why they appear so rarely. Who would build cross-faction and use those toons for raiding? Only scumbags. I mean, would you steal a relic, take it to a hostile faction and then just drop it so they can capture? That would be such a trashy move.

...

Oh wait, oh... I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. I forgot that AO/RK does this. My bad.

Edit: Just realized folks were talking about dip RDD. I'm talking about 30 RDD dragons, with cleric dip for divine shield, etc. I don't know how many RDD dips there are, all of the builds I mention above are full 30 RDDs. Everything else still applies.

[mining]

And the reason there are no clc RDDs that we see is because Twig recruits everyone to TC, and so there are no players in any of the other factions.

The funny thing is that despite Twig's efforts, we actually have people in TNC build cross-faction to create cleric/RDDs because they're so freaking strong in PvM. I'm fairly sure myevan built one, twigzilla is (I think?) an RDD dragon of some sort, not sure if it's cleric though, and I know maou built a clc/rdd although to be fair he's not exactly a TNC player, but he's definitely not an AO/RK player. On a loosely related note, I know that both Mining and Midterm have built sorcs out of AO.

Of course, we don't use them for pvp, because we're TNC, so that's why they appear so rarely. Who would build cross-faction and use those toons for raiding? Only scumbags. I mean, would you steal a relic, take it to a hostile faction and then just drop it so they can capture? That would be such a trashy move.

...

Oh wait, oh... I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. I forgot that AO/RK does this. My bad.

To be fair, my sorc out of AO was from ages ago.