Maybe unpopular but...

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Marah Telexus
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Post by Marah Telexus »

Good points Holghask, except for the +7 hide armor should be removed seeing as that armor is padded armor and takes away from the dex modifier. Also, I believe its +2 hide bonus for hafling, seeing as its a +2 spot bonus for an elf.
So, if you are an elf 38cleric/1monk/1rogue you will have base WIS modifier of 18 at level 1 (at lvl 40 this will be WIS = 46, due to +10 from +1/4 levels, +6 Great Wisdoms for every 4 lvls past 20, +6 Great Wisdoms for Cleric epic feats, and +6 for the amulet)

43 (ranks) +2 elf + 18 WIS + 3 (skill focus) +10 (epic skill focus) +2 (alertness feat) = 80 in Spot...

Adding Spot items +7 for helm (perhaps there is more??) means 87 Spot

Adding True Seeing (undispellable at lvl 38 cleric, yes? 38+11 = 49dc buff) gives 107 Spot

Then maxed owls wisdom give +5 wis = +2 modifier giving 109 Spot.

So, v.s. the 111 Hide that 109 Spot is going to win EVERY time.

Now for reality, that 111 Hide should be 111-7 = 104 Hide, because no sd will wear padded armor (you cant because you would loose more to hide from the loss of dex modifier) and I'm pretty sure haflings get a +2 not a +4 bonus so it would be 104 - 2 = 102 Spot.

Thus making it 102 Hide vs. 109 Spot.

Hmmmm, so TheBestDeception, where is this SD that can spot Holghask's cleric? I would LOVE to watch that massacre :twisted:

If the Hider was warned that he was spotted there might be a chance for success, but as things are now, SD's are toast.

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Post by TheBestDeception »

Hmmmm, so TheBestDeception, where is this SD that can spot Holghask's cleric? I would LOVE to watch that massacre
Since when was his cleric hiding? No need to spot the cleric...

As I stated before, AC is in no way a factor for Sneaky's who hide well. Therefore, it doesnt matter what happens to AC when lesser armor is worn.

If you want to create a character who specializes in spot, by all means, go for it. But to take all those focuses results in a loss in other areas.

Also, you might want to edit your post, considering Holghask only has 72 spot on him.
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer

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Post by Holghask »

Currently (at 36th lev) I have 58 spot with the +7 helm, then 78 after an undispellable long lasting True Seeing, then 80 Spot after undispellable long lasting Owl's Wisdom...then 90 Spot after Clairvoyance...

If the sneak tries to use a scroll to dispell the Clairvoyance, I will see them, then it's over...

Furthermore...I am going to take another level of rogue soon to get my max spot up over 100 (took at 27th lev 30 in spot...at 37th lev or even at 36th lev (I may de-level since Hellball is worthless...only 3000xp above the min xp for 36th lev)). So at 37th lev: +100 to Spot; at 36th lev: +99 to Spot.

I will take those spot scores any day vs. someone with +110 to Hide since in all my extensive testing with buds on the server...if they don't get a warning message, they are toast even with 10 points above my max spot... :wink:

I also erred in the max Hide...i figured 7 epic feats...it's more like 9 so just add 2 more Great DEX to make that max Hide attainable at 112.

I haven't tested this on the server, but I think that padded armor will only allow +8 to your DEX for all things including AC and skills...

If this is true, then that +7 padded Hide armor means you only get +8 from DEX to Hide and not the full +18 or so...can anyone verify this?
Last edited by Holghask on Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by TheBestDeception »

If the sneak tries to use a scroll to dispell the Clairvoyance, I will see them, then it's over...
Hide in plain site ftw? Simply because you see him doesn't mean "its over".
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer

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Actually...

Post by AggieDan »

You know, I think that there is a point to be made here for adding a few new items to help the sneakers out. But, nothing too outrageous.

What you're basically advocating here is making this one class somewhat uber in an attempt to make it possible to handle PvP better in a one on one situation.

Rogues (and this includes stealthy monks, rangers, assassins, shadowdancers) are not the run up and fight someone in the open kind of characters. They are support or skulkers.

In stories rogues generally have been said to steal from mages by sneaking up on an unprepared enemy. And when in a party they are purely a support character sneaking off into the shadows while the tanks and other mages keep the caster busy so that that they can get in a backstab.

Additionally, a rogue should never, ever, ever approach a high powered mage out in the open. That's suicide, no matter whether you can hide or not. Attacking from a well protected position where you can fall back and be out of the line of sight is pretty much required. I know I've annoyed raiders with that technique by ducking around the corner of a building.

Also, if a mage isn't running stilled spells then it is easy to see when you've been spotted. Just keep trying to hide until his casting gets interrupted. Of course this isn't as useful against AoE spells, but can be very effective if you've been spotted.

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Post by deathdearler1 »

not to dampen your day, but my monk/sd/rogue is only lvl 33 and carry's mords and greater dispelling scrolls. if per chance i use a scroll i may or may not get all your buffs down, but i will get the small ones like clair audiance/voiyance. not to mention that if you aren't a monk or a bug exploiter your not going to catch my monk (200% base movement speed) unless i turn to fight you. which effectively means your either going to be chasing me forever....your buffs will run out given the adjusted durations on ns4........or your going to play cheap and safe to rest in avendell or a shop so i don't kill you in your sleep. just in case your wondering...i will kill you in your sleep, sneaks with crippling strike at 5 hits/round while your sleeping means your going to be very str drained and not fighting very wee. :twisted:
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Post by Holghask »

I admit...a character who can stay hidden from me will kill me easy (in this case, they need a Hide that's +20 over my Spot...not gonna happen with the items as they are now)...

However, if their Hide and my Spot are equal, we should split our duels equally on who wins (in theory)...I'm just saying this is not the case...if my Spot is equal to a hider's hide, I will win the duel every time. I'd even go as far to say the same results would happen for a Hider with only +5 to +10 over my Spot skill check....

So after all these frantic posts can we at least get an answer to a simple request? Can the Hider get a message stating they've been spotted by hostile players much like they do when spotted by mobs? Thanks.
Last edited by Holghask on Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by TheBestDeception »

Marah Telexus wrote:So, if you are an elf 38cleric/1monk/1rogue you will have base WIS modifier of 18 at level 1 (at lvl 40 this will be WIS = 46, due to +10 from +1/4 levels, +6 Great Wisdoms for every 4 lvls past 20, +6 Great Wisdoms for Cleric epic feats, and +6 for the amulet)
I just realized how its kinda funny how these things are related... the original post was concerning the preventing of cheese by forcing a certain number of levels per class. After looking through some of these theoreticals, it makes me wonder, "What a great idea!".

And yes, dialogue to show being spotted would be swell.
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer

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Post by JesterOI »

The right druid build can attain 50 wisdom.
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Marah Telexus
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Post by Marah Telexus »

Since when was his cleric hiding? No need to spot the cleric...

my bad, I meant "hide from" not "spot" :oops:

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Post by -Chronepsis- »

Ok,think about it this way holghask,your character is basically built to defend against sd's,so yes in an open fight they should have a ton of trouble,specially seeing your an elf ?so you get the auto detect feat as well.

Try doing out your theory for a non caster,or even somone who isnt specialized in wisdom,even if they have umd,they cant keep those spells up always.If im a rogue or sneaky type character im going to get ppl unprepared,so they wont have all these buffed spells on,if hide goes up much more it just makes non casters even more useless.As for knocking you down,its still fairly possible for a character who goes 20 ranger straight out then gets his sd lvls,a ranger built that way with bane of enemies has very high ab.As i said if hide is added in any way,i dont think it should be added on items,maybe jobs,and hopefully not in places where rangers are playable.atm im fairly confident anyone who isnt high wis,will not spot a well built ranger sd.

What would be nice if its possible,is if there we're a few hide items in the game that SD's cant wear,ya sounds funny,but ppl who can only hide once then have to fight should be able to hide better in my opinion.

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Post by Holghask »

Ok, my posts were never meant to be my char can do such and such...blah blah blah. But rather about helping sneaks have a little bit better chance in PvP battles. As it stands, sneaks do very well vs mobs. The server is balanced for that. they just don't fare to well against other players unless that player has absolutely ignored spot.

Let's think about it this way: a 30th level human non caster with only cross-class skills in spot and a base 8 WIS. This character can still achieve a +38 to their spot roll (+16 from cross class spot skill ranks, +2 from WIS amulet boosting their WIS to 14, and using the +20 True Seeing Helms which anyone can purchase in the shops...the helm would be put on and used as soon as the char detected they were being attacked by a sneaker) possibly detecting a Hider with a +58 hide score.

Sure hiders can choose to actively hide forcing a check less than 1/round. But, spotters can force the same thing doing active search checks more than 1/round. If you activate search on and off very fast, you'll eventually roll a 20 and see the hider...give it a try.

Most good builds will try and minimize the weaknesses of their class with respect to other player classes...ie if I'm a mage and nearing 30th lev, I'm going to try and figure out how I fare vs dragon shapes/sneaks/melees/clerics, and other mages then shore my defenses up a little either by taking and preparing certain spells/readying certain equipment/or by taking another class. Thus, most folks wanting to put skills in spot will take at least 1 class (which has spot as a class skill) in: rogue/ranger/arcane archer/assassin/shadow dancer/champion of torm/weapon master/dwarven defender/shifter/ or dragon disciple. Thus a 30th lev char with 1 of these classes at 30th and a base 8 WIS can have:
33 (skill ranks) + 2(WIS=14 with amulet) +20 (Helm ready to be used with 10 charges) = 55 Spot.

This 55 Spot will detect a char with 65 in Hide most of the time...do some tests and see what I mean. If that char still has problems with sneaks, and is very perplexed about trying to combat them, they may actively decide to take Epic Skill Focus Spot for one of their epic feats, thus uping their spot to 65 (and thus detecting a hider with 75 in Hide frequently).

Furthermore, most hiders on the server are not Rangers. I have friends with Monk/Rogue/SD or Monk/Rogue/Assassin builds. They are lucky to have 60 Hide by 30th level and they need to decide whether to take precious feats to increase their Hide/increase their damage/increase their AB/or increase their AC, dexterity, or HP.

All I'm saying is that Hide seems to be not very functional for a character that should be centered around it: for example the monk/rogue/assassin or fighter/rogue/assassin type. Why must Hide be only powerful for a ranger build when spot can be effectively pumped up for any class/race even the non-WIS based ones? Why not help out the rogues and assassins on the server?

Remember, a non-ranger, non-small stature (not a gnome or halfling) char will receive -21 to the previously calculated max in Hide of +112 since they can't cast Camoflage/One with the Land and use trackless step or have + to hide for small stature.

My recommendations have already been stated (although maybe not too clearly):
1) include a message stating the hider has been spotted by a hostile Player;
2) increase the possible Hide on items by +5 total (maybe even +10)...for example as it stands there's only the +6 to Hide boots and the +7 to Hide padded armor...why not add a +5 to Hide cloak as well?

That's it!

Finally, let me say my apologies for my long winded posts...let's just say I didn't get any work done today... :wink:

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Post by Marah Telexus »

Ok, just as a recap, the +7 hide armor is worthless to dex based characters because it only give a + 8 dex mod to the build, limiting the total hide potential. +7 hide padded armor, come on, make it robes or a cloak for some usefulness.

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Post by Flailer »

You sure the dex bonus isn't just capped in regards to the AC? I thought the full bonus was still calculated for skill bonuses and reflex scrores...probably wrong though.
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Post by Yonwe »

Yeah, you still get your full dex modifier to everything (skills, saves, attacks with weapon finesse, etc) except for AC; incidentally, I believe the armor everyone keeps talking about is the one from Menzo, which has studded leather as its basis and therefore has a max dex of 4 with +4 AC base. What would affect skill checks is the fact that studded leather has a -1 armor check penalty, meaning that while it gives +7 to MS/Hide, it actually only gives +6 when you take away its own ACP.
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