changes to Shadow dancers

[Anelad]

I have a WM that set to get sd's
i took it into consideration, have the spot
have the support, and can see sd's many of times
sometimes i get them, sometimes they get me
all are good fights, BUT....

One thing i have noticed, is the spamming of HIPS
to get the numbers in there favor
as i dont see them all the time
but only some of the time, they will spam HIPS
repeatedly until they get the numbers in there favor

As we know this game has alot to do with luck
should sd's be allowed to spam HIPS until they get
the numbers in there favor should be the question

You dont need a ton of wisdom to see them
and you shouldnt ALL the time unless there just a bad build for a SD
but when you do have them spotted should they just be able
to spam it 10x's within 5 seconds untill luck of the draw is in there
favor clearing your que everytime? Guess thats my only beef with SD's

And again, Great job on the server

Mamba...

just show your spot skill points here, not how hard you tried to spot

[cRaZy8or5e]

I saw you imploded Laufer, and I think its much easier for you to implode mental's vindur and nog's MaeVar (oh sry you cant, they got deleted).

Laufer is getting better at playing a HiPSer, but still not as good as Vindur, MaeVar, or Pielo, or Napolian, or Neil's sd's. Vindur was not easily imploded, in fact you needed a pure bard around to be able to reliably hit him with one, MaeVar had a ton of protection from spells pots (I haven't seen any of these around lately?) and then of course a bard/sd is unimplodeable. Laufer would still tear up just about any non-keen senses build out there, its just his timing hasn't quite gotten to the level of those other players.

The fact that those other builds are deleted and not on the server, does not mean that someone won't recreate or duplicate them or even improve upon the concepts they embodied.

[Alkapwn]

The thing about spamming hips is your not doing anything really but that. It makes any form of hastey escape impossible and you are definitely not hurting anyone because you can get the first attack segment as a sneak than hide again and have to wait till the next attack round.
To be honest I don't have much expierence playing SD's (only have 2 in my brigade) but have alot of expierence fighting them and know that they are only a minor annoyance comparatively to alot of other pvp builds. IMO SD's are only effective against a few type of builds. Most casters without spot should be able to very quickly dispatch them if they know thier spells and thier opponents weaknesses.
I understand why most of you are up in arms about sd's. SL does have alot of them (Shadow Legion with a Legion of Shadow Dancers!!! What are we thinking??). But we have a slew of Spotters aswell , Assassins,Rogues,SD's,Clerics,AA's,Harpers?!? and have no problems dispatching would be Hips raiders. They key is teamwork guys. 1v1 battles are generally going to go to the build with the advantage 9 out of 10 times.
I've heard people call exploit on hips'rs manytimes over the years (Que clears, spamming etc.) but that is the classes only survivability. There are many exploits vs them aswell which i will not mention but they are used everyday.
My opinion is a 1rd cooldown between hides would destroy a really fun pvm class to play and as far as pvp it would destroy them. I would just make corner hiders instead and save 5 levels for more destructive purposes.
While we're on the subject I also purpose that upon reaching 30lvls assassin they should receive hips indoors/underground. As a balance vs. the hipsing ranger. Being that the would have a very weak Discipline I dont think that would be to overpowered Compared to RDD's Dragon form or CoTs uber DR,PM's Accomplise, DD's immunitys, and Shifters just plain awesomeness. Its pretty much SL's only unique build
This will be my last post about sticking up for our little shadowy friends. Someones got to!
- Co-Founder of the My Hipsr will pwn you Foundation

[Korr]

To actually have to wait a round to hide (considering in D&D hiding is not a free action) is appropraite. HiPS is Hide in Plain Sight, not Hide as free action. If your SD cant survive 1 round out in the open I would think you might want to take a look at the other 35 levels you put into your character, and not the 5 levels of SD. Since hide is a free action in NWN you are diong alot more than just clearing the que... your free action translate to being able to react immediately, whereas if you interrupt someones spell they have to wait for a new round to start. It is possible to hide, unhide, hide, attack, hide before a caster can blow a second spell (considering you killed the que with first hide).

I think assassins have plenty going for them at level 30. . . 2 rounds of etherealness isnt enough for you. The minimum (inside temple of lolth) 38 DC KILL (which is a touch atack BTW, so huge AC toons get hit too). Let alone if you have some intelligence behind youre character youd be looking at a max KILL DC of 61. This also means youre paralyze DC is 63 max at 30 assassin. I have a cleric with just a few discipline items on and he has over 65 discipline (pure cleric no 43 ranks for him). Lets also not forget the truestrike, FoM, Cats, Foxs, invis (free action), ii (free action), darkness spells you get access to.

[disastro]

i kinda dont mind ppl with 5 levels of sd getting punked on hide and having to rely on their other classes. if getting spotted or losing your action queue clearing effect turns your 5 sd into instagiblets then its back to the drawing board even with a 1 round cooldown it would be one of the most powerful effects in the game.

ideally there would be very little hide gear, and you'd have to invest in a lot of sd levels to be good at shadowdancing (with an attendant tone down of +spot spells). like most other prestige classes, the best benefits would come with more dedication. but thats more of an ns5 suggestion now i guess.

[Anelad]

I saw you imploded Laufer, and I think its much easier for you to implode mental's vindur and nog's MaeVar (oh sry you cant, they got deleted).

Laufer is getting better at playing a HiPSer, but still not as good as Vindur, MaeVar, or Pielo, or Napolian, or Neil's sd's. Vindur was not easily imploded, in fact you needed a pure bard around to be able to reliably hit him with one, MaeVar had a ton of protection from spells pots (I haven't seen any of these around lately?) and then of course a bard/sd is unimplodeable. Laufer would still tear up just about any non-keen senses build out there, its just his timing hasn't quite gotten to the level of those other players.

The fact that those other builds are deleted and not on the server, does not mean that someone won't recreate or duplicate them or even improve upon the concepts they embodied.

why it is harder to implode a ranger/rogue/sd than a monk/fighter/sd? UMD?
well, I saw bargeld 's cleric imploded vindur in SL temple without any problem.

[Anelad]

Easy and simple here . . .

Monk (19) / Paladin (5) / Shadowdancer (16)

16 monk and 4 paladin pre-epic
divine might for some extra damage

(44) Fort = 24(base) + 5 (con easy to get) + 7 (cha min for div might) + 3 (random items) + 5 (easy to get 4-5 from feats)

44 - 3 (difference between pally good and pally low saves) = 41 Will

With a maximum DC of any spell being 48. . . youre not looking bad without even coming close to a min/max situation for saves.

Yes 48 is max since you stated easy to get 50 DC implode I will show you the max calc.

20 (base stat) + 10 (levels) + 10 (great wisdom) + 4 (book) = 44 + 12 (max magical) = 56 (23 ability modifier)

Spell DC = 10 (base) + 9 (spell level) + 6 (epic focus) + 23 (ability mod) = 48

Thats a simple, off the top of my head build that could get epic dodge, good speed, +6 hide/ms from SD levels alone, divine damage, maybe a horsey some day, spot, listen, hide, move silent.


Anything else I have to spell out to you Anelad?

ok, I choose drow for you, so begin with 14 str , since you want divine might, 18 (final 28)dex ,the more the better, 10 con/10 wis/12(10+2)int/16 (14+2)cha
and here's a feat list
Dodge, Mobility, stealthy, Power Attack, Divine Might, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Blind Fight, Skill focus (move silently), Epic Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), Epic Fortifide, Epic Will, Blinding Speed, Epic Skill Focus (hide), Epic Skill Focus (move silently), skill focus (hide), Epic Dodge
of course you can change them, post your final result, and then we can discuss.

oops, seem I forgot to choose weapon finesse, ok, give up epic will.
If no change made, lets see what we can have
AB= 26 (BAB) + 1 (weapon focus) +2 (epic weapon focus) + 1 (blinding speed) +7 (gloves) +6 (cap dex bonus) + 9 (dex=28) +4 (divine power from amulet)=56, not bad

AC=10 (base) + 5 (neutral) + 6 (cloth) + 5 (deflection) + 2 (blinding speed) + 4 (shadow evade) + 3 (boots ,the only one with +8 hide/ms) + 9 (dex=28) +6 (cap dex bonus) +6 (cap wis bonus) + 3 (monk ac) + 8 (tumble) =67, not bad too

Hide=43 (skill points) + 3 (skill focus) + 10 (Epic skill focus) +2 (stealthy) + 6 (shadowdancer) + 9 (dex=28) +6 (cap dex bonus) + 8 (boots) + 7 (cloth) +7 (cloak) + 8 (ring of shadowsx2) =109,

Move Silently=Hide -7 (no bonus from cloak)=102

Spot=43 (skill points) + 20 (true seeing) + 6 (cap wis bonus) + 10 (Helm) =79

with +4 DEX book and +4 WIS book
AB=56+2=58
AC=67+4=71
Hide=109+2=111
Move Silently=102+2=104
Spot=79+2=81

if we're not lucky enough to get a pair of that +4 ring, we can use two +1 rings instead, so Hide/MS are 105/98.
heh, a decent hipser only reach 105/98?

[cRaZy8or5e]

I saw you imploded Laufer, and I think its much easier for you to implode mental's vindur and nog's MaeVar (oh sry you cant, they got deleted).

Laufer is getting better at playing a HiPSer, but still not as good as Vindur, MaeVar, or Pielo, or Napolian, or Neil's sd's. Vindur was not easily imploded, in fact you needed a pure bard around to be able to reliably hit him with one, MaeVar had a ton of protection from spells pots (I haven't seen any of these around lately?) and then of course a bard/sd is unimplodeable. Laufer would still tear up just about any non-keen senses build out there, its just his timing hasn't quite gotten to the level of those other players.

The fact that those other builds are deleted and not on the server, does not mean that someone won't recreate or duplicate them or even improve upon the concepts they embodied.

why it is harder to implode a ranger/rogue/sd than a monk/fighter/sd? UMD?
well, I saw bargeld 's cleric imploded vindur in SL temple without any problem.

Uhhhh . . . cuz he had a higher fortitude save.

[Amoenotep]

yeah..you guys are right, we should just delete the class...woot. let me get lokey on the horn and see what he thinks

[Lokey]

if we're not lucky enough to get a pair of that +4 ring, we can use two +1 rings instead, so Hide/MS are 105/98.
heh, a decent hipser only reach 105/98?

No, you're just looking at the wrong classes to do this, though sneaks are pretty decent. Top tier HiPSer is ~120/113 hide/ms, top tier listener/spotter isn't touching that most of the time. Without the 16/9 from non-boots, then it'd be down to die rolls, but that isn't the case.

A few wis-based types would spot you consistently, might have difficulty actually killing you... I can think of an arcane build that would be a real headache, but that's always a matter of caster levels (have to dip, 83 + wis isn't enough--for that matter 103 + wis isn't either without wis being your main stat).

/Goes to set Menzo Spot/Listen modifiers to +60 each

Tep, wouldn't have to delete it if I'd been listened to in the first place Now it's infected Shifter, Ranger, Assassin...Halfogres could be next!

[Korr]

A top of 120 hide isnt that high, with a div focused caster around Rex has 116 spot. Hes not elf (2 more) nor does he has skill focus (3 more) or alertness (2 more), which would give him over 120 spot if he were, and would have keen senses.

And Anelad . . . you asked for a hipser that couldnt be imploded/wailed. That build is more than enough especially if you have the int to get some spellcraft. Ive written up hipser builds that go over 125 hide, and just under that for m/s (difference in items). They yes are more susceptible to implode and such, but thats ok Ill just clear the que of the person trying to implode me. Also keep in mind your statement of "AB 56, not bad" thats against flatfooted opponents, this means no divine shield, no dodge boots, no tumble AC, no dex AC (unless has uncanny dodge), no song AC. The itterative attacks of that build would also be 56/53/50/47/44/41, count another 56 for haste. . . or throw flurry on for 54 itterative and 3 max AB attacks. And last thought, you get 7 feats pre-epic, and 7 post-epic not 8

[Lorkar]

A top of 120 hide isnt that high, with a div focused caster around Rex has 116 spot. Hes not elf (2 more) nor does he has skill focus (3 more) or alertness (2 more), which would give him over 120 spot if he were, and would have keen senses.

And Anelad . . . you asked for a hipser that couldnt be imploded/wailed. That build is more than enough especially if you have the int to get some spellcraft. Ive written up hipser builds that go over 125 hide, and just under that for m/s (difference in items). They yes are more susceptible to implode and such, but thats ok Ill just clear the que of the person trying to implode me. Also keep in mind your statement of "AB 56, not bad" thats against flatfooted opponents, this means no divine shield, no dodge boots, no tumble AC, no dex AC (unless has uncanny dodge), no song AC. The itterative attacks of that build would also be 56/53/50/47/44/41, count another 56 for haste. . . or throw flurry on for 54 itterative and 3 max AB attacks. And last thought, you get 7 feats pre-epic, and 7 post-epic not 8

And there's the heart of the SD problem. When they cant overcome their opponent they will just clear the queue until they can get away, get reinforcements, crash their opponent or chop them down using the HiPS to exploit the flatfooted issue repeatedly.
Considering this attitude is probably a majority sentiment, I call for the removal of the SD until such a date as they can be fixed.
Unless something along the lines of the potion cooldown effect can be implemented. With each successive attempt having a lesser percentage of being effective.

[renarð]

Just a few things

The max hide is 108+dex, the max spot is 112+wis (human or elf).

Given how is it quite difficult to hit the +50 cap for hide (requires trickery domain with large amounts of cleric levels or large amounts of SD levels, or ghostwise with one with land and bard song and an appropriate job bonus) and how trivial it is to hit 50 spot (2 spell focus feats and a helm), I really think the power of the shadowdancer lies in the fact that not many are willing to build spotters (just as I haven't yet) not that they are overly powerful.

Bottom line: if you build a hardcore spotter (elf, aasamir, or svirf) no one can hide, I don't even bother to try against Korr.

Additionally, while HiPS'd the dancer is flatfooted as well and would be easy to hit _if_ you were a spotter. And you only go flatfooted if you were targetting the shadowdancer, attack someone else and they are only getting a +4 (?) for being unseen and missing out on a lot of attacks.

Lastly, only 3 (perhaps 4) of the dancer's attacks should be against flatfooted ac given nwn's combat engine.

I personally would enjoy a 1 round cooldown, but I am not going to claim the system is broken without one.

Ð

[LinuxPup]

Code: Select all

The max hide is 108+dex

Not necessarily... Rangers/Druids get a +4 bonus in wilderness, plus small creatures (including halflings and gnomes) get a +4 bonus that doesn't show up in the character sheet... Plus I believe there's a hide bonus at night if I'm not mistaken.

[Korr]

Dont care to do the math for the skills in NS4, but heres engine mechanics for spot.

+10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
Area spot check modifiers.
+5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
+5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
-10 DC at night if the target has a light on them.


Got it from nwn.wikia.com