It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
Don't forget that if improved stunning fist is limited to IV or V, anything that was built with X will have 5-6 freed-up epic feats to spend on something else. You can spend that to give yourself more ab, ac, spot, whatever or use it on wisdom feats to improve your DC that way.
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Chernobyl_Glow
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Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
I have to say I’m pretty proud of myself after reading these comments. Glow Holyfield !@#$% did NOT depend upon stealth i.e. flatfootedness in order to land a hit (high 60’s ab with party). He did not depend on stunning something in order to be survivable. He had good saves +40 and good AC +80. What protected him against HIPS Stunners? – 128 Spot.
..: ISF V :..
Funny thing is (maybe this is old) but he was highly effective with only Stunning Fist V. 52DC. If the proposal is to eliminate ISF VI-X then I don’t think you’ll actually affect much. Those builds which were vulnerable will still vulnerable. People will still be limited with their build choices. Those who choose to build and risk it will still be chain stunned to death.
..: Chain Stuns :..
I think the real problem is chain stuns. If I get one shotted by an Implode then I curse and respawn. The indignation and frustration ends quickly and I’m back in the game. To suffer through 10 chain stuns for 60 seconds while I’m am whittled to death is torturous to the player. The player’s frustration is amplified by the long duration of their death while being able to do nothing. Never getting the chance to fight is frustrating beyond any other kind of beating. That’s what’s wrong with Stunning Fist.
..: Create the Chance for a Player to Fight Back :..
So far, I like the notion that you would gradually increase the target’s saves and resistances after each stun.
- Just got stunned = Apply Stun Resist I (+5 to Fort and +3 DR) for 4 rounds.
- Just got stunned and Stun Resist I = Y, then Stun Resist II +10 Fort and +6DR for 5 rounds.
- Just got stunned and Stun Resist II = Y, then Stun Resist III +20 Fort and +12DR for 6 rounds.
This ensures that at the very least you’ll have 1 round to counteract and take some action to prevent the chain. You could also through in +50 spot/listen just to max a person’s ability to counter the HIPSers. The bonuses and the duration is easily modifiable for balance. A side effect is that it may grant the victim immunity to Wail/Implode or other effects for three rounds. I don’t see this as a game changer as it is only a few seconds.
..: Self Balances? :..
One nice thing in this approach is that it sort of self balances. If I, as a stunner, choose to continually make my opponent more powerful with each successive stun then I know I better kill him or he’ll be a monster when he wakes up. Some players may choose to go all or nothing while others may better there chances of the kill by letting the opponent fight back long enough to clear their buff.
..: Dynamic/Incremental Improvement :..
DR doesn’t stack with other DR. This is good. A character using DR to combat ISF would not benefit as much. Just as a character who already hits the +20 Saves Cap. Gradually improving a player’s chance of making a save as well as gradually improving their survivability will effectively auto balance.
..: Tweakable :..
Also, it could still be tweaked by the staff after implementation. Rebuilding characters is not very tweakable. If you later find out that you nerfed too much or too little it will be more near impossible to take another try at rebuilding players. It is cool that you’re allowing players the chance to do so. You should have let me rebuild my Epic Mage Armor nerf Tensor’s build (how’s that for holding a grudge. Lol)
..: Promotes Teamwork :..
My stunner’s real weakness (if you call it that) is that he really was awesome in a party. He was ok solo but not OP. He was what I called a “buffable” build. Like a Weapon Master suffers solo but shines in a party. Buffable. A COT on the otherhand, is only marginally improve by a party. A COT already hits caps all the time by himself. This solution allows the contribution to a party by a stunner. It creates a scenario where teamwork can still benefit but the 1v1 scenario is more fair. If you’re stunned while fighting a party you still get to die if they coordinate. The thing is that you’ll die fast as they ‘should’ focus fire upon the stunned. If they don’t kill you immediately after being stunned then you’re more durable which balances the fact that you were sleepy for 18 seconds.
..: Doesn’t Require Rebuilds :..
The other thing is that this doesn’t change any builds, and may not dramatically change any other aspects of the game. It might become a game with in the game as in “oh noes, now crazyhorse is a monster!”
..: OP Builds Cause Player Attrition :..
Funny how I finally made an OP character and then quit. Something broken can cause the winners to get bored just as quickly as making the victims frustrated.
Good luck to you all. I’m tempted to log in to NS4 just to come find Trollhobbit.
- Glow -
..: ISF V :..
Funny thing is (maybe this is old) but he was highly effective with only Stunning Fist V. 52DC. If the proposal is to eliminate ISF VI-X then I don’t think you’ll actually affect much. Those builds which were vulnerable will still vulnerable. People will still be limited with their build choices. Those who choose to build and risk it will still be chain stunned to death.
..: Chain Stuns :..
I think the real problem is chain stuns. If I get one shotted by an Implode then I curse and respawn. The indignation and frustration ends quickly and I’m back in the game. To suffer through 10 chain stuns for 60 seconds while I’m am whittled to death is torturous to the player. The player’s frustration is amplified by the long duration of their death while being able to do nothing. Never getting the chance to fight is frustrating beyond any other kind of beating. That’s what’s wrong with Stunning Fist.
..: Create the Chance for a Player to Fight Back :..
So far, I like the notion that you would gradually increase the target’s saves and resistances after each stun.
- Just got stunned = Apply Stun Resist I (+5 to Fort and +3 DR) for 4 rounds.
- Just got stunned and Stun Resist I = Y, then Stun Resist II +10 Fort and +6DR for 5 rounds.
- Just got stunned and Stun Resist II = Y, then Stun Resist III +20 Fort and +12DR for 6 rounds.
This ensures that at the very least you’ll have 1 round to counteract and take some action to prevent the chain. You could also through in +50 spot/listen just to max a person’s ability to counter the HIPSers. The bonuses and the duration is easily modifiable for balance. A side effect is that it may grant the victim immunity to Wail/Implode or other effects for three rounds. I don’t see this as a game changer as it is only a few seconds.
..: Self Balances? :..
One nice thing in this approach is that it sort of self balances. If I, as a stunner, choose to continually make my opponent more powerful with each successive stun then I know I better kill him or he’ll be a monster when he wakes up. Some players may choose to go all or nothing while others may better there chances of the kill by letting the opponent fight back long enough to clear their buff.
..: Dynamic/Incremental Improvement :..
DR doesn’t stack with other DR. This is good. A character using DR to combat ISF would not benefit as much. Just as a character who already hits the +20 Saves Cap. Gradually improving a player’s chance of making a save as well as gradually improving their survivability will effectively auto balance.
..: Tweakable :..
Also, it could still be tweaked by the staff after implementation. Rebuilding characters is not very tweakable. If you later find out that you nerfed too much or too little it will be more near impossible to take another try at rebuilding players. It is cool that you’re allowing players the chance to do so. You should have let me rebuild my Epic Mage Armor nerf Tensor’s build (how’s that for holding a grudge. Lol)
..: Promotes Teamwork :..
My stunner’s real weakness (if you call it that) is that he really was awesome in a party. He was ok solo but not OP. He was what I called a “buffable” build. Like a Weapon Master suffers solo but shines in a party. Buffable. A COT on the otherhand, is only marginally improve by a party. A COT already hits caps all the time by himself. This solution allows the contribution to a party by a stunner. It creates a scenario where teamwork can still benefit but the 1v1 scenario is more fair. If you’re stunned while fighting a party you still get to die if they coordinate. The thing is that you’ll die fast as they ‘should’ focus fire upon the stunned. If they don’t kill you immediately after being stunned then you’re more durable which balances the fact that you were sleepy for 18 seconds.
..: Doesn’t Require Rebuilds :..
The other thing is that this doesn’t change any builds, and may not dramatically change any other aspects of the game. It might become a game with in the game as in “oh noes, now crazyhorse is a monster!”
..: OP Builds Cause Player Attrition :..
Funny how I finally made an OP character and then quit. Something broken can cause the winners to get bored just as quickly as making the victims frustrated.
Good luck to you all. I’m tempted to log in to NS4 just to come find Trollhobbit.
- Glow -
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
BahahahChernobyl_Glow wrote: “oh noes, now crazyhorse is a monster!”
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
i will just explain my case as stunner player. I have only 1 stunner toon (Pacquy Mayao [IO]) and here goes his stats...
The first purpose of the toon was to make an anti sneaker...So i didn't went full DC (take 8 ISF) for a 57 Max DC (depending of wisdom buff). Also i went epic dodge and i run 69 AC (71 with bard)...I take 118 spot auto buff (121 with focus buff)...and finally 77 hide/MS and 47 AB (48 with Small size) the toon is Monk/Rogue/fighter(no Hips)...
On first view, 57 DC seems very nice, but my AB is particulary low....There is a tons of toons i can't beat. Some have just 56+ fort, and some just Spot/Listen me (its not so hard
). But i stil stunning many players...
Here some explains:
- Lack of experience : typical listener trying to catch me after i corner hide
- Lack of team play : many times ,Team mate of stunned player don't even try to use a clarity rod (lvl3 crafter), or casting an invisibility or darkness on stunned guy in order to protect him (many time you get dispelled in PvP), wrong spells choices in order to stop me....an evidently , the typical team with 0 spotter/listener on it... when i see a cleric with no listen (regular 43 pts + wisdom bonus + item swap will easy beat my H/MS) i just think that he want to be stunned or cripple sneak, as cleric are one of the best class for anti-sneaker...
Evidently, there is many stunner toons with best saves / AB / damages average, but when i see, how my crappy stunner can be deadly, i understand that DM and devs can be spammed of complains of players....
But if your touched by a toon with 47 ab and 77 hide/Ms , is because your toons is not well made enought or/and you can play it better and avoid be stunned, or/and your team mate can play better in order to avoid your death...
Finally, stuner can be played by ALL factions, with minor differences...(only CoT still very over the top of the rest)
If you go hunt an elephant with a bow, you will be probably stump to death. Start to go hunt a stunner with appropriated toon and play it well, and you will crush 95% of stunners...
It's not all about the DC or the chainstun...
The first purpose of the toon was to make an anti sneaker...So i didn't went full DC (take 8 ISF) for a 57 Max DC (depending of wisdom buff). Also i went epic dodge and i run 69 AC (71 with bard)...I take 118 spot auto buff (121 with focus buff)...and finally 77 hide/MS and 47 AB (48 with Small size) the toon is Monk/Rogue/fighter(no Hips)...
On first view, 57 DC seems very nice, but my AB is particulary low....There is a tons of toons i can't beat. Some have just 56+ fort, and some just Spot/Listen me (its not so hard
). But i stil stunning many players...Here some explains:
- Lack of experience : typical listener trying to catch me after i corner hide
- Lack of team play : many times ,Team mate of stunned player don't even try to use a clarity rod (lvl3 crafter), or casting an invisibility or darkness on stunned guy in order to protect him (many time you get dispelled in PvP), wrong spells choices in order to stop me....an evidently , the typical team with 0 spotter/listener on it... when i see a cleric with no listen (regular 43 pts + wisdom bonus + item swap will easy beat my H/MS) i just think that he want to be stunned or cripple sneak, as cleric are one of the best class for anti-sneaker...
Evidently, there is many stunner toons with best saves / AB / damages average, but when i see, how my crappy stunner can be deadly, i understand that DM and devs can be spammed of complains of players....
But if your touched by a toon with 47 ab and 77 hide/Ms , is because your toons is not well made enought or/and you can play it better and avoid be stunned, or/and your team mate can play better in order to avoid your death...
Finally, stuner can be played by ALL factions, with minor differences...(only CoT still very over the top of the rest)
If you go hunt an elephant with a bow, you will be probably stump to death. Start to go hunt a stunner with appropriated toon and play it well, and you will crush 95% of stunners...
It's not all about the DC or the chainstun...
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
and here a bonus for mining....make a token with Bioware true seeing for lvl 35+ casters (clerics, druids, bard, sorc and wizards ) but dispelable....
Hypsers and hider stunner problems solved....
Hypsers and hider stunner problems solved....
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
hond wrote:Bioware true seeing
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
Lol!
just unravel everything the NS4 development has built in 1 sweeping, knee-jerk move! ...not.
It -could- be interesting to give Bioware TS to only the most devoted caster - Pure-40 caster only, and only with full DIV focus...but still that may still be too powerful really. OR give an extra bonus to certain pure 40 casters to spot & listen since they can only cross-class them (ie: sorc, wiz, drood,& clc, NOT bard or ranger) only prob there is with div focus you can still CAP the bonus..so you'd have to boost it via free feat(s) or something.
just unravel everything the NS4 development has built in 1 sweeping, knee-jerk move! ...not.
It -could- be interesting to give Bioware TS to only the most devoted caster - Pure-40 caster only, and only with full DIV focus...but still that may still be too powerful really. OR give an extra bonus to certain pure 40 casters to spot & listen since they can only cross-class them (ie: sorc, wiz, drood,& clc, NOT bard or ranger) only prob there is with div focus you can still CAP the bonus..so you'd have to boost it via free feat(s) or something.
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
True seeing is not an option. Period.Celorn wrote:Lol!
just unravel everything the NS4 development has built in 1 sweeping, knee-jerk move! ...not.
It -could- be interesting to give Bioware TS to only the most devoted caster - Pure-40 caster only, and only with full DIV focus...but still that may still be too powerful really. OR give an extra bonus to certain pure 40 casters to spot & listen since they can only cross-class them (ie: sorc, wiz, drood,& clc, NOT bard or ranger) only prob there is with div focus you can still CAP the bonus..so you'd have to boost it via free feat(s) or something.
Bargeld wrote:Overall, I think most would agree that a pure rogue is probably the worst build on the server.
Re: It'd be pretty neat to nerf stunning fist
mining and I agreeing is probably as common as Alka and I agreeing.mining wrote:True seeing is not an option. Period.
A 40 sorc with bioware trueseeing could be all but unstoppable!
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest