Stunning fist request

[Eldaquen]

Devs,

I submit that stunning fist in its present form is overpowered and unbalances any class that is able to use "given Aetherain goal of a balanced world". As of late, I have noticed that stunning fist DC's reaches 54 and 55 vs fort, I understand fort save is raw score, but could I be incorrect in that. Others have explained that the ability requires 10 feats to achieve this DC, however the spamming of this ability is resulting in an inbalance and overpowering the ability. As used now, attackers are spamming stunning fist leaving the opponent with no hope of coming out of the stun. Spells with a holding effect similar to stunning fist, like the druid spell "stonehold", have recieved modifications to balance them. In the example of Stonehold, Devs elected to add a time limit so a person under the stonehold affect would be immune from the spell. {EDIT: change log states immune from spell, I thought for a period of time but per log immune from future cast.} I submit that stunning fist should be subject to a similar limit, after it expires. As implemented now, a 55 DC monk, pure fighter or dragon build, is able to spam stunning fist to keep another stunned indeffinately. The spamming of stunning fist appears to be overpowered and I humbly request you consider balancing, by adding time limit to reduce the spamming tactic.

For those of you against modifying this ability, referencing the 10 feats necessary to receive, Stonehold and Bigbies also require multiple feats and dedication to caster levels to max the respective spells DC vs save. The devs in their wisdom, still elected to balance these holding affects so any affected would, at some point, be able to counter attack during the encounter furthering pvp experience. Stunning fist as implemented now takes away from the pvp experience and hinders enjoyment of the server by those coming under the affect.

EDIT: removed comment about removing affects of stun as mentioned below that explain it can be by clarity.

From the encounter resulting my desire to post this, the attacking monk hit my toon Netya'nis 11 times with stunning fist while she was under the affect. She was in red dragon form with fort save of 34 vs stunning fist's DC of 55. According to the manuals the stunning fist affect is supposed to last 3 rounds. During this encounter, stunning fist lasted 11 rounds, then Netya'nis was killed, 3 Scythers joined in the battle. The affect would have lasted longer had she not died so quickly from multiple attackers. As implemented there is little enjoyment in fighting pvp vs a build equipped with maxed DC stunning fist coupled with indefinately holding opponet by spamming tactics.

Regards,

Eldaquen

[Eldaquen]

As further evidence why Stunning fist should be reviewed: terrifying rage was modified to balance said ability. Aura used to re-fear opponents without end holding victums indeffinately but was changed to give barbarian's opponents a chance to counter or flee. From change log:

Altered terrifying rage:

-DC is now 3/4 of intimidate skill.
-When used by PC barbarians, targets become immune for 2 minutes after being affected by it.

Now terrifying rage lasts for 1 to 6 rounds then opponent has chance to counter or flee. Stunning fist gives no opportunity to counter or allow victum to flee because monk is able to spam feat with DC that only a CoT/paly could hope to save against.

[Korr]

Ok I have made multiple stunning fisters . . . heres how it goes.

The maximum (of the minimum wisdom) DC you can get is 60. To get this DC you must dedicate 10 epic feats to using it. With 7 epic feats available to everyone you need to use 3 bonus feats to be able to reach this DC.

Lets compare to barbarian rage. . . which requires 1 feat and skills . . . if you want you can add another feat leaving for 3 more DC (on average). So barbarian paralyze requires 3/10 of what a good stunning fister requires. Doesnt seem comparable to me considering barbarian roar is automatic within an area (no attacking)

Lets check bigby. . . to focus in 1 bigby it requires 2 pre-epic feats (not as comparible with epic feats in most cases). Two epic feats are required to max it. This like stunning fist is required to hit the AC of an opponent yet bigby bypasses ANY stun immunities (even though mind immunities have been removed from the server aside from a few classes). So now we are at a 4/10 ratio with an actual attack being required, much closer but not on par with what it takes to be a good stunning fister. As far as caster levels go. . . doesnt matter, a cleric (using cleric because it can get epic spell focus) using a bigby scroll with the appropriate skills and feats has JUST as an effective stun as a wizard.

If you are fighting a pure monk, or a high level monk you get more stuns per day (per day being the limiter of stunner builds) and have the ability to "spam" it, but even so you cannot be restunned if you are currently stunned (ie if you get stunned, then for the next 3 round they use up all their stuns youre still free after 3 rounds of the original). A pure fighter with extra stunning attacks (pushing the feat number to 10 epic and 1 pre-epic) feat gets 13 stunning attacks per day. Meaning at 5 attacks a round you CANNOT spam this ability and have it work. This means someone who keeps you stunned for 39 consecutive rounds is a good player who knows how to time attacks.

Stunning fist can be stopped by a clarity spell (Arcane Crafters can even make rods of this) meaning that it is ESPECIALLY easy to get rid of a stun on someone. Elda you are a pure druid. . . try A N Y elemental form and you will notice if you are immune to crits youre IMMUNE to stunning fist.


So in conclusion, elda im sorry your dragon form only has 34 fort when your druid gets high fort saves, my pure bard has a 34 fort with his song up and no other buffs . . . fort is a low save for him. In the end elda. . . you are blaming people for YOUR problem. Because you DONT know that your elemental form is immune doesnt mean they should nerf stunning fist, because you raided ALONE with NOONE to clarity or buff your fort save doesnt mean they should nerf stunning fist. Because you dont take save feats in a world where immunities are limited doesnt mean stunning fist should be nerfed. Because your dragon cant take on and kill EVERY build doesnt mean they should nerf stunning fist. Because you REFUSE to build a stunner yourself doesnt mean they should nerf stunning fist, etc, etc, etc.

EDIT: Oh and BTW you have to be able to do damage to get a stun off. . . no damage, no stun.

[Eldaquen]

First off, I was not blaming anyone. Merely stated an opinion regarding queuing up multiple stunning fist attempts against already stunned opponent.

Still doesnt change my opinion that, even with the commitment to feats, stunning fist should not be chained together as they can be now. An opponent should have opportunity to counter or at least do something.

Yes, I did not know elemental form was immune to crits. Stood in dwarven plane and let an elite have at Netya'nis. I did not see that listed in change forums nor meantioned elsewhere. Not a form generally use due to lack of damage. I am not aware if this was a change when shifters were modified or if added after the fact. Pre nerf, I believe elementals were not crit immune. Thought only constructs and undead were. Netya'nis was built prior to changes, so build based on different set of rules than exist now, not surprising she has holes now.

Lastly, was not expecting to beat every build with a dragonbuild. Thought would be nice to have an encounter and give some semblance of a fight instead of just be a player combat dummy.

[Korr]

So whats the difference between spamming stunning fist and spamming Improved Knockdown?
So whats the difference between spamming stunning fist and Improved Disarm?

Why are you singling out stunning fist? Because someone doesnt have to shift into a huge or greater size creature to be able to KD your dragon?

Elemental form has always been immune to crits, as one of three things that are crit immune (constructs and undeads being the other 2).

An opportunity to counter? A 40th level monk has 25 bab + appx a 15 dex modifier thats 40 AB, without some super buffing you only need about 70 AC to keep from getting hit except for 20s? Or you could pump your fort save by 6 with 3 feats and your dragon should have what 28 con? thats 15 modifier max + 22 from pure druid fort = 37 fort save, or 43 with those feats, 49 with a bard song. 54 DC isnt so scary after that is it?

But hey if were at it, lets add cool down timer to hips, igms, bigby, ice storm(or heaven forbid enemy ice storms hurting OTHER enemies like we hurt our friends), disarm, kd, stunning fist, sneak attack, crippling strike, divine shield, divine might, divine power, tensers, divine favor, ava, epic dodge, PDK fear, death attack, smite evil, ki damage, whirlwind attack, etc, etc ,etc. Why should any fight last 11 rounds when we can timer everything to make EVERY fight last 11 hours!!!

[Tru3Fals3]

i gotta agree with Korr, you dont seem to have any understanding as to what it takes to build an effective stunner, if it was easy, everyone would have one (like for ex. druid dragons, cheese sds and bigs wizzies), as it is there are only a few effective stunners on the server, its not stunning fists fault that they happen to be your enemies.

finding the correct balance between AB, DC, AC, damage etc, is NOT easy, spamming stun fist is not really effective and wastes stuns, timing stuns is difficult and takes practice as does anything, playing a stunner is not easy either, i put a lot of thought and effort into my stunner and dont appreciate you implying that its unbalanced and my toons only good cause stun fist is overpowered, which it most certainly is not.

to me this just seems like your upset cause your build gets beaten by stunners and because you have no answer for it, you want it nerfed, which is just plain wrong, there are plenty of ways to beat stunners, every build can be beaten, which is what is so good about this server, stunners are not the be all end all of NS4.

[Eldaquen]

Tru3Fals3, I was not asking for change to stunning fist's DC rather the spamming of it, which in your post you stated spamming of stunning fist is not effective. Please explained then why the feat was spammed if spamming it is not effective.

I focused on one aspect, which really was how it is being used, the tactic, not how it works or the DC. If you take the time to read what I wrote the topic against was regarding spamming.

There have been other tacts spammed that I have spoken out against, not just with stunning fist. Transistion spamming & disarm are 2 examples. I have asked for a time limit on transistioning that went either unnoticed or no response to.

Not the actual feat that have issue with, but the spamming tactic. Your post states is a waste to spam, does that indicate you do not approve or condon the spamming of stunning fist as well?

Regarding what you wrote about only my enemies using stunning fist...that is not true, the first response I receive regarding this was in game in a tell stating a guild mate of mine uses stunning fist so I should not have brought up. Does not change the spamming of any ability tends to cross over to abuse and dare I say it exploiting.

I voiced an opinion: in forums which you both been able to respond to and give your opinion regarding. Would nice to see opinions regarding spam topic only without the attacks on my builds or person, but at least now know where I stand.

[Shhhhhhh]

I guess they spammed it untill one landed? and after that only again when that one wore off?

[Eldaquen]

Regarding barbarian terrifying rage: Korr wrote: Lets compare to barbarian rage. . . which requires 1 feat and skills . . . if you want you can add another feat leaving for 3 more DC (on average). So barbarian paralyze requires 3/10 of what a good stunning fister requires. Doesnt seem comparable to me considering barbarian roar is automatic within an area (no attacking)

Required feats {to max, since comparing to maxed}, terrifying rage, epic skill: intimidate, skill: intimidate, 44 skill points (need to sacrafice an ability stat to increase INT so have enough skill points because still need disc, tumble, conc and spellcraft to survive). Intimidate is modified by CHA ability, so barbarian would not want this stat to be negative further reducing either STR, DEX, WIS or CON. Baring use of tomes as not everyone has one when they start a new build. Maxed terrifying rage needs 3 feats (not 1) and necessary to adjust ability points so have enough INT for enough skill points to spread around, it is not a cookie cutter build, must consider affect to AB, AC or hps when redirect ability score points to INT for the skill points.
But not the point of this thread.

[Eldaquen]

Shhhhh asked: I guess they spammed it untill one landed? and after that only again when that one wore off?

The first hit received was a critical hit with stunning fist. Stunned from the beginning of encounter. As I reviewed combat log, every first strike of attacker's round was another stun attempt which occured 11 times for the 11 rounds that melee occured, which was the time it took from initial stun, 10 more attempts at beginning of every round ending at toon's death.

[Alkapwn]

So you are suggesting a cool down between stuns?
Sounds reasonable I guess. 1rd immunity after stun?

[Eldaquen]

Yes, that was all I was suggesting. Even if only 1 round.

[VagaStorm]

Given that it dos indeed take 10 feat to get that dc, it is an imense sacrefice. Unless you go for the purefight your ab aint gona be that good. I'm quite sure your general stunner will have a few wounrabileties...

[Jacks Revenge]

Yes, Elda by all means lets not tell the whole truth. Its all about your poor little dragon that got stunned by my big bad monk. Lets not talk about the 4-6 vine mines you had all around the relic room (wasnt grease and creeping doom changed just because of spam like that?), or your solar that was hitting me and doing damage. Yes I spamed stunning fist because:
1. Your were trying to get my relic, and that is a no go at this station
2. Your dragon would have probably ripped my monk a new one if you werent stunned considering the damage output against your dragon 600+ hit point dragon was about 10-20 damage per hit if not less. So with my pitiful damage output of course i would want to keep you incapable of moving or taking off with the relic till the big guns got there to deal with you correctly.
3. To make an effective stunning fister you have to give up alot of feats just to make it worth something as others have stated balancing AB, AC and the Stun DC is hard. Thus my monks ab is probably less to be desired which means in order to have even hit you with him I probably had to catch you flat footed.
4. I had no idea stunning fist lasted three rounds. So now ill be sure to make sure I wait three rounds before I stun you again next time. (Me learning this was the only good thing in my opinion that came out of this thread)
5. I had stunned 4 other people with that toon earlier in the day and why is it you who is the only one who thinks it should be nerfed? If we are about nerfing things that pervent movement, why didnt you bring up the assassin's paralyze attack..that lasts much longer, if i remember correctly.
6. You were trying to get my relic, that is a no go at this station.

Dont mean to be rude or hateful..I just dont understand by one person dying we have to have a thread on how it should be nerfed.

Thanks
Jack

[Rufio]

I think I was a little too harsh the first time about the post above this one, so here it is a little toned down...

Constructive comments only please.