Nerfalicious

[Korr]

Ok so Im wondering if we can do something else with a few of these spells . . . something along the 3.5 rules. 3.5 Removed NEP all together, instead Deathward did both of those things. With the reduced power of both NEP and Deathward can we maybe integrate the NEP bonuses into the Deathward spell, or the other way around. That way 1 spell is more anti-negative energy stuff (like mage shadow shield) instead of leaving NEP for neg energy, and deathward for just a few saves? As it is UEF is 9th level and therefore cant be extended, which is fine by me for a whole party immunity spell.

If clarity and mind-blank still remove mind-spells upon casting then thats not so bad. Bonuses stacking is good as well, so if youre wanting that then thats what it is.

Please consider merging Deathward and NEP in their current states as one spell, had already been done in 3.5

[maibs]

everyone seems to be overly concerned about the implications of this for PVP.

I however am worried about the implications of this for PVE.
I believe several locations will probably be unplayable now due to the disabling nature of the abilities in play by the mobs and the extreme nature of the DC's for the saves.

in PVP you may be up against a character class or two or three that all have their quirks, in PVE though you are frequently up against spawns of six or more mobs that have "save" or die type abilities (eg undeads fear auras, fail your save while your tanking six of them and you're screwed, you'll be dead before anyone can cast clarity on you to get you off your flat feet), the will save for the illithids stun is quite high (no protection now) and the tentacle attack (extract brain) is even higher.

there's lots of places I haven't been on NS4, and after this I imagine there's lots of places no-one will go anymore.

if getting killed is going to be this unavoidable I'd like to buy some raise dead scrolls.....

ohh wait, I can't someone has to pay XP and gold to craft them and then be kind enough to sell them to me (not gonna happen..... no-one wants to take an xp hit right now, while trying to get to 40 after the wipe)

or perhaps buy something to remove this level drain that I can't be immune to anymore... you know.. since resting doesn't fix it......
nope.. can't do that either.....
soooooooo
we're all vulnerable now and the remedies to the afflictions are unavailable....... hmmmmmm

[MLoki]

do spells like mind blank or clarity still remove mind affects? (I'm assuming so, but thought I'd make sure)

Yes.

Does the bonus to saves against mind affects from clarity/mind blank and the like stack with bonuses from AVA/prayer/Aid?

Yes.

These posts seem to suggest that mind blank/clarity is worthless, which is certainly not true. The problem with many of these spells is that they were so easy to get (especially prot. from alignment), and yet they completely negated mass quantities of spells and abilities (enchantment school for example). Death Ward negated many necromancy spells too. Having a decent will save (even if you're a pure fighter), has always been important, but now even more so.

After a bunch of buffs a player was very NS 3.5 (no offense to those players).

So why not give increased immunity with Spell Focus? Taking away the use of the spell completely makes room for people to exploit other abilities they know can't be countered now. Other spells like Improved Invisibility and Freedom of Movement are used far more often then any of the spells listed above because they give the biggest benifits. Other spells like Mind Blank and Death Ward were only used in very specific instances when players knew it would come into play. If we have to Focus in a school to get those abilities then it would take somebody more dedication to be able to negate specific effects. Just my 2 cents.

[LinuxPup]

or perhaps buy something to remove this level drain that I can't be immune to anymore... you know.. since resting doesn't fix it......

Wrong. UEF gives immunity.

[maibs]

cool
I've not had a cleric of my own for quite some time.

I personally like these changes and the way that they open up more possibilities in PVE and PVP for both players and mobs.

I'm a little worried about how badly beaten the group of folk who go to HoD are gonna be
immunities existed to these things that were applied liberally by the mobs and now the immunities are gone.

I hope these changes were thoroughly tested before implementation to ensure that the NS4 PVE game was still possible (you, know, without having a whole party of BG's,COT's and Pallie's in their builds.......multiclassing is all well and good, when the server requires that your party consist of cheese to survive though, there's a problem).

[LinuxPup]

We've been discussing this for a while... pally/bg/cot classes aren't necessary for adequate saves.... even a pure fighter with buffs will be looking at upper 40s will saves vs. spells.

immunities existed to these things that were applied liberally by the mobs and now the immunities are gone.

Again, the worst part of HoD is the abil/level drain... and we didn't remove access to those immunities.

[MLoki]

.... even a pure fighter with buffs will be looking at upper 40s will saves vs. spells.

*Edit Ok so this must be the math on that unlikely as it may be

16 - Base Will save at 40 (6 pre-epic, 10 epic)
4 - From 18 Wisdom
6 - From stat buffs
4 - From Max 20 Spellcraft
8 - Protection from Spells
4 - Misc Nerfed Buff
5 - Max Bard Song
49 - Will Save vs Spells

*Edit for best case scenario ( I did forget to add the feats)
7 - Additional Feats
56 - Will Save vs Spells

This is specifically against spells and only if the Misc Buff is for the right kind. Now for abilities like Fear alot of those buffs won't apply and with Fear DCs in the mid to upper 50s, immunity may be the only option for these classes.

*Edit continued
The problem is not many fighters are able to put an 18 in Wisdom and still be able to hit things which is a fighters primary job. I did add a +4 for Misc Buffs since most won't stack or are for specific occasions. This still doesn't solve the problem of non spell will saves either. I think the biggest problem is failing one of these saves usually ends up in the characters death.

[LinuxPup]

Well a pure fighter has no shortage of feats... don't forget Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul, Iron Will, and Epic Will... and the saves from gear... actually you can probably go into the low 50s. Oh, and Aura vs. Alignment gives +4 will.

EDIT: you forgot epic save bonuses too... +6 is at level 20.

[Bargeld]

Just a tidbit from an in-game conversation that is forming more solidity:

"Looks like they are trying to encourage larger parties and less soloing"

In order to hit that 49 will save on a pure fighter, you have also required that the fighter be grouped with both a bard and a cleric. Please keep in mind that if your pure fighter is focused to resist will attacks in order to survive in a PvE situation, you are sacrificing the good parts about being a fighter and opening vulnerabilities to other areas by requiring gear/feats for defense.

[VagaStorm]

Dos death ward now helps vs implotion to?

[LinuxPup]

No implosion isn't considered death magic. All death magic spells are in the Necromancy school.

[VagaStorm]

I thought items with boost to deat save protected from implotion, but I could be wrong.

[burrahobbit]

Ok, this is not technically on topic but build your high will save fighter and you just wasted your time and made a worthless pure fighter, good job. I hope you do make this high will save fighter so he is completely worthless in all other aspects of the game and i can kill you more easily, but hey, he'll make that will save right.

These changes were not needed and and i for one and getting sick of the "unnecessary rampant nerf bat". (like it matters what i am sick of right?) I get the feeling that you guys are changing things just to change them. I see no logic in this action. Pvm just became damn near impossible without a large group. Server numbers are up right now but the slow down is coming and not all server patrons can get in a group of 7 players and go where ever they please. You just lost a few players i am sure.

If your trying to make the server harder, there are easier and more effective ways of doing this. Destroying clerics isnt the way to go.

But, since you dont care what we think, and love to tell us you dont care what we think, i guess i will end this rant here.

[Amoenotep]

these changes came about from the rampant and liberal use of "immune to everything". both classes and spells that give this.

ns4 is built on a low end magical scale..does it make sense that at lvl 40 given that the availability if magical items is sparse that you should be immune to almost anything thrown at you? if you build around it...nothing is that hard.

no, i don't feel these changes are forcing players to play in larger groups. some of the mobs abilities will have to be adjusted accordingly...we know this. some of the spells will have to be tweaked a little here and there....we know this.

instead of running around everywhere willy nilly...now you might actually have to put a little thought into what you intend to do..and what you actually do.

[Bargeld]

Thank you for letting us know that there are continuing plans to adjust this.

When making your adjustments, can you also take into consideration that the warrior classes are the most succeptable to will saves and that most fighters are at the forefront of battle. With the 1.69 'whirlwind' fix, which has caused us to relearn and rethink our tactics, having a caster or any party member run up to you to remove a stun/paralyze/etc has become much more difficult. Physically reaching a tank surrounded by enemies may not be possible in the manner that it was previously.