Nerfalicious

[--Ashe--]

That's very, very easy. What I'm thinking about is the ridiculousness of places like DWP. It's hard, really hard. Menzoberra, whom I consider the hardest boss in DWP, has a huge DC on her Storm of Vengeance. Mindblank was pretty much required for her, and now you've just made her pretty much impossible for a DWP party to get past her. Mindblank was a *requirement* for the high level planer runs. Clarity still removing effects makes it slightly easier, but what's to stop them from failing it again? And again? And you can't get out of the storm in Menzo's room. It's too small, you can't retreat, it's undispellable, and you've got to worry about the Alhoon sucking out your brain.

Not to mention that nasty little treat awaiting those stepping into the Illithid Colony, even with mental protections prior to nerfs. Guess thats just another one of those things we get to walk into willy nilly and adapt too... oh wait, we already were.

This whole discussion is getting old. Decision is made. Done deal. Over it. Tired of it. Save it.

[MLoki]

I should have added in my last post that the people that are going to like this change are the ones that are going to exploit it in PvP. I've already come up with a few builds myself that take complete advantage of it against those that aren't already immune. I just think that this change will cause more problems then it has "solved". I'm done, and will just wait to see if time will tell.

[VagaStorm]

the ONLY class that can achieve a +20 magical AB is the cleric ON THEMSELVES...... how is that support ?

The ONLY cleric that can get +20 ab is cleric with war domain.

The ONLY class that can get +20 ab is a pure cot with blinding speed and a +6 wep or no blinding and a +7 wep. This can lat like 80 rounds on a properly buildt cot.

Wisard and sorcerors can also have +20 ab with true strike, but it dont last long. It can still be usefull on like an AA to get INSANE ab for a short while to roll in som called shots.

[Korr]

Maybe the dev's are thinking that everyone should be playing more well rounded characters instead of min/maxed charaters in one area? Maybe they see that people are being driven to power game (which is as I understand it the problem with NS3.5) so now Instead of Building a Half-Ogre fighter with 26 Strength Modifier you need to build a Human Fighter with a 26 will save. Instead of just running up to tank untill something dies from merely shamshing it to the ground you need to have a couple wizards handy to dish out some quick damage. Dont plan on having the best AB and AC and Saves and DC on spells and most HP with the most DR and be the fastest character around.


Wait, a striking idea! Instead of focusing on how these changes AFFECT you, use them to AFFECT others (PvP and PvE... makes no difference). And as Bargeld already said once in this long thread, the Devs are aware of their changes, and they have rarely (if every) posted changes to monsters that have been made.

The thing I see these changes affecting the most is the speed at which monsters are stomped on. With no more immunities, not everyone will be up in the battle every second of every round swinging and spell-slinging. It will take strategy to win. So build your toons from now on to survive... because in the end of every battle the winner is the one still standing.

[burrahobbit]

so which is it..mages are overpowered now or rogues with crip strike?

mages have always been powerful....now they have more spells to throw at you that can't just simply be ignored

crip strike has always been nasty...now you just have to build around something that might hurt your build instead of just buffing to be immune to everything.

You just made my point tep, the mages were already powerful and crip strike was already nasty.

[ashsagoon]

you probably just didn't realize your builds sucked

Oooh that's going into my sig

[Amoenotep]

if clerics still give good immunties and buffs towards immuniteis....how does that make your clerics worse off?

bards add more to your saves..have one in your party?

[ashsagoon]

Well, I don't think the problem is not being able to get your stats high enough. It's that now you have to have a bard or whatever to get them there whereas before you didn't. While the server population has definitely risen since 1.69 was released, I still don't think there's enough people on. DWP was only beaten 3 or 4 times in several months. And that was with plenty of level 40 toons. The problem was that there were never enough people on with the right classes when you wanted to go. For DWP you have to have a lock picker, a bard, a cleric, tanks, etc. And it was impossible to go all the way through without all those classes. Sure you could farm the outside with a small group, but now that group will have to be a little bigger and more specialized probably. It's just hard to organize so many people on the server because not everyone has a spare level 40 bard or cleric that they can pull out when you want to do a raid.

I'm less concerned about pvp with this and mostly concerned with pvm. There are certain areas that will become a lot harder. DWP, Draco's room (with the fear), and others are just examples. I just hope these will be adjusted accordingly.

The devs and dms are doing what they think will balance the server. If it does actually severely unbalance the server then hopefully they'll make adjustments accordingly. All we can do is sit back and watch. I'm just glad you guys are doing this now and not when I have 4 level 40s that would be rendered obsolete by this.

Oh and..
*slow pitches kobolds and rakshashas towards the nerf bat*

[Bargeld]

The ONLY class that can get +20 ab is a pure cot with blinding speed and a +6 wep or no blinding and a +7 wep. This can lat like 80 rounds on a properly buildt cot.

Wisard and sorcerors can also have +20 ab with true strike, but it dont last long. It can still be usefull on like an AA to get INSANE ab for a short while to roll in som called shots.

Pure fighter token is +20 ab for 8 rnd (i think)
Assassin gets true strike 1/day
20 wiz/20bard can get +10 tensers +3 greater bulls/cats +2 bardsong +3 warcry +1 haste = +19 and then you can curse the enemy, reducing their ac by 2, netting a +21 ab gain

[cRaZy8or5e]

Jimminy XMAS!!!!

When I started this thread, I wanted a healthy discussion but all this . . . I don't know whether to feel proud or nervous.

But back to the topic.

Seriously, when you play in a faction dependent on its one caster class for shoring up weaknesses, and then that caster class gets its buffing abilities nerfed. People tend to go "wait a tick!"

Using the excuse that "people don't know how to build" as a reason to make changes is irrelevant and insulting. I know that it wasn't necessarily directed at anyone in particular, but it was in response to others posts so could be construed to be directed at someone.

The explanation I'm gathering is that certain spells and abilities were made irrelevant by these buffs. The immunities that these spells provided implied that you had to have a well rounded party to protect you from these sorts effects. You could build to create toons with these abilities or you could build with the hopes that someone would have a toon that could buff you to protect you. However I thought (uh-oh) the fact that there were no items that gave you these protections was an effective means of making this a low magic server. Apparently that's untrue? I haven't heard a valid argument for changing these spells, only that you're going to dumb everything else down. That sounds like a lot of extra work, for little return, but that's just me. I really want to see what kind of fear auras the guardians and draco have.

It also seems that more changes are forthcoming. I really think that NC could use some more arcane help. As it is right now, we can't buff up as well as other factions with arcane abilities (mind blank rocks), nor get the cool aoe death spells, divination and wails. We have one cool kill you button implosion, and some kick butt PRC's, but who wants to only build those. Furthermore we're severely lacking in the ability to strip buffs. I know all about the abilities of an epic abjuration Grtr Dispel, but its still not as cool as a mord or pick ur flavor of breach. But that's an old debate from a long time ago. (still plugging for wizzes or sorces)

In the end, all I wanted was an explanation for why the staff thought these changes were necessary. Well that and to lobby for some more arcane goodness!!!!

I didn't want to turn this thread into a forum for much wailing and gnashing of teeth, or the shameless boot-licking that we've seen. Btw, Tep, I really just love your avatar, where did you find it!? I wanna be just like you when I grow up.

[Amoenotep]

whats really funny to me is for the last 5 months i've been hearing/seeing (and from ppl in this very thread) that casters are so gimp that their dc's need to be scaled up to compete with the rest of the server.

now you don't have complete immunity to everything.

the funny part comes in here....all i've heard/seen for the past few days is how overpowering dc's are for casters and without blanket immunity to most anything that could be thrown at you, your build has the slimmest chance in hell of surviving an encounter.....please tell me i'm high right now.


before the wipe it was a common thing to see players with fort saves in the 50's. it was common to see players with saves in all 3 of 35+. i seen a PM once with a reflex save of 15....15! are you joking me in saying that if that lvl 40 PM got knocked on its but by a lvl 20 caster with grease that the caster is over powered?

think about the change that just happened, think about how your builds will end, think about how your party's shape up. take a breath...then tell me how much it sucks for you.

[cRaZy8or5e]

*thinks . . . takes deep breath* *barrio accent* DEES SUCKS MAIN!!!

We don't know how much it will suck. But we'll tell you how much we think it will . . . at great length and in much detail.

[Brionn_Unbound]

A suggestion-Would it be possible to scale the new spell effects to the casters lvl? While spell lvl is important in considering how powerful it should be. I think caster lvl should also be considered. say a range of+1-+N for caster lvls1-39 and reserve the full immunity effect for the lvl40 casters. It would be a nice reward for keeping a toon pure to 40.

[--Ashe--]

Think about the equity of the factions as they are currently set with arcane power and those without. Considering the fact that NC relies heavily upon clerics as casters, why wouldn't we be in a huff. Then again, who cares, as usual. Clerical aims are as protection givers, they are the offset to the all-encompassing power of mage damage. Now we get to be save nudgers.

You've all made it clear that you only want clerics to act as party enhancers. Now I reckon we can be party slaves to compensate for the necessity for mage spells to be long term affects (level drains, diseases, yada yada yada). Expect me to start charging people that aren't my faction that ask me to take the affects off from now on, goodwill is at an end. Live with the whining on Shout. Make your own clerics since you aren't so concerned about what happens now and since the devs are looking out for everyone. Levellers already have debilitating problems getting some of these effects as it is, try following someone in NC who has to deal with the undead drain with a dexer and talk to me.

Did any mages out there consider that maybe they could just strip the buffs they find so offensive... oh wait they did it every time I ever faced someone... guess we weren't being followed on any of those special occassions. Oh, and wasn't FoM already strippable by use of Greater Dispel? Never seemed to have a problem stripping FoM with a cleric... I guess its just too much to expect a mage to spare a greater dispel for that when casting one Mord can now cover it.

Hmm review the change log, what's the last thing that's been added that adds anything to a clerical ability? Darkfire faction changes and banishment augmentation. Yet we are concerned over the spread of spell available to the arcane to cast? Goodness know the range of spells available to them were so limited as it is.

It's fairly evident what everyone's attitude is, you all gleefully like to pat each other on the back over your nerfs. Yet you want to act suprised when we balk at your attitude? Here's an idea... perhaps you could have limited the time that said buffs works. Or use your beloved spell focus means to augment restriction for protections more. Nah, you're right, lets just strip it.

Wait, you pay attention to people quibbling over arcane dc? Does that mean we can expect a timetable for Tenser's to get the attention it apparantly so sorely deserves according to all the posts... wouldn't want mages to miss out on their opportunity to replace a fighter for a few rounds. Give me a break.

Heck throw in the implode protection to, I wouldn't want you guys to think we were getting by with uber powers or anything.

Yeah its all really funny to me too. A big waste of my time is what it is.

[Amoenotep]

we went from clerics/mages handing out blanket immunity to clerics/mages buffing others saves to help with dc's they never had to make before because they were immune. how does that nerf your cleric or make him less important?