Bigby Tested

[Korr]

I tested out Bigby today on my CoT who finally got the appropriate feats to do the testing. . . the results were less than lovely.

Before I start, yes I have a wizard I tested with. Yes he uses Bigby, so Im not asking to change what bigby does, just how to defend against it.

My CoT has epic skill focus in discipline AND tumble. This (according to wiki(sort of)) means that he should have 10 + ranks to avoid being affected by bigby. I tested this character against my 30 pure wizard crafter. What should have been a 43 (33 ranks + 10 epic focus) roll against the 9th level bigby was a 37 roll, I could only guess that the paladin (and 4 unbuffed charisma bonus) bonus to saves gave this last 4 bonus. I then tested the 7th level bigby, in which I should have a 40 + roll but I do not, I had a 33 (strange number I cant figure out) roll vs the bigby. This means that there is no helpfull defense (except maybe Arcane Defense : Conjuration (which would only be a +2 to roll that not every character can get)) againsty bigby.

I do not know if this was intended (I would guess not by the wiki statement) or not, but I think this makes Bigby easily over powered. Bigby spells are not affected by SR, nor do they have a "normal" save. This non-normal save can (not tested! my wizard is not epic skill focused in discipline or concentration) be WELL over powered. Potentially a wizard with skill focus and epic skill focus in discipline and concentration could get a 56 + roll vs 43 + roll check on bigby. This means that on a roll of 20 by the person who has been bigby the wizard only need roll a 7 to negate that. So in essence, an appropraitely focused wizard can remove a person from activity 35% of the time.

Timestop was changed because it was an "I win" button, does it not seem that bigby is running this direction. Spell mantle does nothing, skill focuses do nothing, saves do nothing. You cant just pop a heal potion for it to be gone, you need a UMDer or a caster around to stop a bigby. This is also means YOU cant be the caster if youre getting bigby because you need to make the (seemingly) impossible check to dismiss the bigby.


Again I have not tested whether epic skill focus concentration/spellcraft help bigby or not as the wiki seems to say, but I DO know epic skill focus discipline/tumble DOES NOT HELP!!!

[MLoki]

Try 9th level bigby on a high AC toon or 7th level on a high Str toon. Not all builds can defend well against bigby all the time but you will find some builds like these are completely immune to them. You say they are over powered but compared to similiar death spells that are available on those same levels I would have to disagree. Perhaps the fact that they are defended against in different ways and not everybody can be immune to them by having high saves or high SR makes it seem overpowered but having watched bigby bounce off more then a couple non 40th level characters with my 40th level bigby specialized caster makes me doubt that they are. Knowing how to use them and against which builds helps but they are not the I Win button that you think they are.

I do agree that the skill checks seem a little off but after having extensively tested these with a Dev there is more then a fair chance to ignore the spell given the proper feats. Just like with SDs not every character can spot them every time but that's what makes this game great. There is always some build that can.

I actually did suggest that full skill be used for both checks instead of base ranks because most builds like to boost Discipline as much as possible and there are several + Tumble items that don't help anything at all. I think that small change might help balance things a little more since a caster that uses Bigby might take ESF: Spellcraft but there are very few that would take ESF: Tumble. It's too bad we don't have grapple rules in NWN that could help with the bigby scripting.

[Korr]

Well I never said that bigby was an "I win" button. I said it seems to be going down that path.

Level 9 bigby attack roll :
Spell DC + 10 + d20 = 48 (max) + 10 + d20
So the level 9 bigby on a truly focused wizard/sorc would be able to hit 59 AC without a roll, and up to 78 AC (or more realistically a 75 AC). You can cast it and run away, or hips. Meaning if you have 5 of these you can cast, run, wait for the bigby to hit, and come back to work your target over a bit.
Stun DC = 43 (concentration ranks) + 6 (focus feats) + 13 (possible if skill focus conc works) = 49/59
Your rate of success = 43 (max discipline) + 2 (arcane defense (which requires you being a caster)) = 45

So a focused bigbier has the potential to hit almost any AC in the game negating concealment and epic dodge, and a 4-17 lead on the die roll once said hit is done. At level 40 caster this is 20 rounds long. The level 9 spell by-passes any immunities to stuning.

Level 7 bigby is not as powerfull
Once a round for 10 rounds it forces a tumble check:
Tumble = ranks (43 max) + arcane defense (2) = 45
vs
Spellcraft = ranks (43 max) + focuses (6) + possible skill focuses (13) = 62

This is a 17 point lead in the die rolls. The effect is being held for the duration of the spell or untill . . .
A str check
str + d20 (your check)
vs
8 + d20 (casters check)

If you win youre free, but are stuck to the possibility of repeating the repeating bigby on you. If you fail youre slowed . . . bioware slowed that can only be FoMd away. And FoM can be morded away.

So the 7th level looks like it would work here or there, the 9th level has the possibility to work on every character you come across. Again there is no spell resistance check, no accounting for concealment, no accounting for epic dodge, can either be dispelled (at the risk of having ALL your buffs dispelled) or dismissed. During this time the wizard is free to run around and lay out even more spells.

My thought to making this a more balanced option is that the bigby requires concentration to maintain (ie no casting bigby, then mords, then melfs, then ice storm to death (or igms)). Not a concentration check but, just cant cast another spell or it ends the bigby (like tensers), we could say that for every 5 or 10 (or whatever) caster levels you can have that many bigby going on at once. So 4 bigby at once for a pure caster, etc, etc. Since the wizard/sorc would be conjuration focused to be able to maximize bigby, this wouldnt be a huge drawback because of the bump the summon would get from these focuses. A wizard could lay out the strong damaging spells, and then drop back into a bigby to let the summon finish off the monster.

[Lokey]

Epic skill focus is 5 and skill focus 2 or 3 from what I remember of the code.

[Korr]

A second thought at the 9th level Bigby, instead of "bypassing all stun immunities" allow the stun immunities (which would be from race/prc/whatever) keep you from being stunned, since there is no immunity to mind effects anymore from spells. Just a guess that it bypassed those immunities because they were easy to get.

[number one bastard]

Epic skill focus is 5 and skill focus 2 or 3 from what I remember of the code.

well then it shouldn't SAY + 10, cause that's what everyone is lead on to believe, so imo, i think it should be fixed to 10 or dropped to 5 and people oughta know about it

[Amoenotep]

Epic skill focus is 5 and skill focus 2 or 3 from what I remember of the code.

well then it shouldn't SAY + 10, cause that's what everyone is lead on to believe, so imo, i think it should be fixed to 10 or dropped to 5 and people oughta know about it

write your congressman and tell him to write a memo to bioware

[Korr]

Thats what were doing, you all are our NWN congressmen ';)

[number one bastard]

Epic skill focus is 5 and skill focus 2 or 3 from what I remember of the code.

well then it shouldn't SAY + 10, cause that's what everyone is lead on to believe, so imo, i think it should be fixed to 10 or dropped to 5 and people oughta know about it

write your congressman and tell him to write a memo to bioware

i hate you, and i still think you should fix it !!!!!! ...

[Lokey]

Also belated thanks for anyone that posts feedback or writes his congressman. In this case though the bugs are ours, the only problem is the limited number of things we can do with the game.

[MLoki]

Also belated thanks for anyone that posts feedback or writes his congressman. In this case though the bugs are ours, the only problem is the limited number of things we can do with the game.

Sorry... bugs are being discussed in another topic.

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... &t=1001278

Please keep the posts to the topic at HAND

All puns intended...

[LinuxPup]

All puns intended...

Well played...

Anyway feel free to post bugs/exploits that would be simple and quick to fix... it's not always obvious what's quick. Fixing the shifter crash was obviously not a quick and easy fix, but fixing subrace SR from automatically returning when a player respawns/is raised was.

I've been spotted in game a few times and I may fix a few things up here and there... maybe add a few things.

[Amoenotep]

can i have a dm tool that auto deletes a random char that is logged into the server at the time?

[frogofpeace]

Just port em to the Thunderdome . Or posess the devil angel and chase people around. Now THERE'S an event!

[Korr]

Ok I have made a character that has every possible feat (according to wiki (my only source of info)) to be anti-bigby. While only at level 26 right now, I tested it against my crafter wizard (not bigby focused in any way and only level 30). Two strange things popped out to me. . .

1) With skill focus discipline and tumble, epic skill focus discipline and tumble, and arcane defense conjuration strangely my tumble check vs 7th level bigby is 4 lower than my discipline check vs 9th level bigby. What would cause this I have no idea.

2) With a difference of 4 skill points I was being affected by a bigby from a non-focused caster about 1/4-1/2 of the time. With 6 feats to back me up against bigby specifically I would think that going against a toon with ABSOLUTELY no feats to enhance bigby it would be no contest that I would not fail bigby checks. This is not the case.