Shifter change

[Daltian]

Also, by this change you penalize al of us shifters that went with more then 11 or 12 lvls of shifter. With 12 lvls I can get all 3 epic shapes (undead, outsider and construct) that are still good. I loose some DC on gaze from vampire (but if it was 25 or 30 it doesnt matter. It is still useless anyway) and loose drow and kobold which i will not use anymore anyway and thats all.

[cRaZy8or5e]

I think we should get to know what exactly the changes were. I don't understand why that's a problem.

From what I hear it sounds like you nerfed some of the more overpowered abilities like the vampire gaze. Some of the other things that were nerfed were disturbing to me to say the least. For instance, nerfing AB. I don't know a single shifter that had an overpowered AB. In fact every shifter I've come across had a decidedly low AB. Now you've lowered them further? That makes no sense to me. This is a pvp server where AC over 80 is not a very difficult prospect. PM/bards and RDD/bards can get 90 AC with the right books and gear, without resorting to feats like improved expertise. It's already possible to get AC's that surpass people's ability to have the AB tohit them.

If your intent is to highlight the defensive abilities rather than offensive abilities of shifters, then that's understandable. Oh wait, all their defensive abilities got nerfed too. I thought their defensive abilities is what made shifters attractive as a PRC in the first place. They've never had very good offensive abilities, but that was the point I thought. Dragons buffed up with a bard song were suddenly comparable in AC to some of the uber bard/melee builds out there. But they weren't overpowered either. Dragon shifters are supposed to be huge destructive forces able to contend with just about any melee build out there. I thought that was the point of being able to shift into dragon shape. Dragons already don't have the AB to hit any of the high AC dex elf builds out there. Forget about it if it's a githzerai. Most dragons I've come across can't hit hardly anything unless they've got a bard and a cleric to buff and even then its difficult for them, especially in the face of any bard builds as they get cursed and lose anywhere from 3-5 AB before the fight even starts.

Oh well, like I said, I think shifters needed to have their defensive abilities adjusted, and yes the vampire gaze was very overpowered, however nerfing some of their other already limited offensive abilities doesn't seem to make sense. Of course, all I have to go off of is Datian's commentary. Again, it would be nice for the staff to let us know exactly what changed and how it was changed. Then we'd have a better understanding of how things were changed and might better be able to see the why. Instead there's this mass hysteria rippling through the NC/TC ranks 'OMG they nerfed the holy-hellspawn outta shifters!!! We're all gonna die!!!' and no real knowledge/stats on what was nerfed and how it was nerfed.

[LinuxPup]

The only form's AB that was lowered is the Dragon Shape's. Dragon Shape was getting around 79 AB with buffs....higher than most dedicated weapon masters...too high. Currently Dragon Shape still provides 73+ AC and 58-59 AB with no buffs at all... mine has 77 AC, but that's because he's an RDD.

[DOGsoldier]

The Ab on feat chosen shifter shapes have a good ab, what it states on the char sheet doesnt reflect what the battle log states, so ab is around 50 - 60 depending on how you build the so called shifter, to me that is a good AB, considering all the other things that go into the shifter shape. Even the Dragon AB doesnt reflect what the real ab is, look into your battle log and see for yourself.

[Anelad]

The only form's AB that was lowered is the Dragon Shape's. Dragon Shape was getting around 79 AB with buffs....higher than most dedicated weapon masters...too high. Currently Dragon Shape still provides 73+ AC and 58-59 AB with no buffs at all... mine has 77 AC, but that's because he's an RDD.

The AB of dragon shape isn't stable.You have only 50% chance to get 58-59 AB for the first attack per round, and there's also 50% chance you get only 46-47 AB for that attack, because dragon biting doesnt give AB bonus.So, on average the AB is 53-54 which I think is too low even for a monk.
If you think the dragon's AB is higher than most dedicated weapon masters, why not just increase the WM's AB?The change for the dragon will make it much easier for a pure pally to defeat a dragon, which won't reduce the imbalance but increase it.

[Daltian]

The only form's AB that was lowered is the Dragon Shape's. Dragon Shape was getting around 79 AB with buffs....higher than most dedicated weapon masters...too high. Currently Dragon Shape still provides 73+ AC and 58-59 AB with no buffs at all... mine has 77 AC, but that's because he's an RDD.

I never complained much about dragon shape nerf anyway. Its kobold and drow that disturbs me. I rechecked my druid 15/shifter 24 and i lost 16 AC when in kobold shape. And you need to understand that "pure" shifter kobold can't use hips because our move silent is way too low. Also, we cant swap our shield to get damage immunity/reduction of appropriate type so all that enemy needs to do is change to damage that we don't have covered and we are toast. With items and epic skill focus you can get it up to 50 at best, when other SD's go in range of 80+, most of them 90+.

[Aarkon Draco]

somewhat related .... if the shifter was overpowered ( i somewhat agree as its the best soloist ive ever made ) the SD need a nerf badly as from what i hear a SD can SOLO DWP!!!!!!!!! not in it entirety ofcorse but still it shouldent be able to be soloed at all thats what the main point of DWP was, a super zone that you absolutly need a decent party to even handel it. so given that the shifter was a bit uber the SD must be rediculessly overpowered as it can do something that 99.999& of the rest of us cant.

more on topic changing the vamp gaze IMO was a good move as it gives reason to make a 30 lvl shifter for the better DC as for other forms i have fully tested them out but the4 kobald should have a bit better AC as it was the main deffensive form IMO perhaps adding back half of what it was nerfed? to use daltians ex instead of 15 AC lost maybe only 7 or 8. id need to play with my shifter a bit more to get a better idea of how they have changed brfore i can comment on other forms.

[Nyeleni]

The only form's AB that was lowered is the Dragon Shape's. Dragon Shape was getting around 79 AB with buffs....higher than most dedicated weapon masters...too high. Currently Dragon Shape still provides 73+ AC and 58-59 AB with no buffs at all... mine has 77 AC, but that's because he's an RDD.

That might be true but the damage output with dragon form isn't that good. With crits. you do mostly 40-50dmg only. Hardly comparable to a WM.

And no wonder you didn't lower the other form's ab, they weren't hitting much already anyways.

[DOGsoldier]

Ya the dragon damage output is no where compared to a WM on that subject, go fight the dragon in Shadowplane and see the difference hehe.

you do mostly 40-50dmg only

Most i did was close to 100 damage on a crit, mostly regular damage falls in the single digit numbers to 30.

Also, we cant swap our shield to get damage immunity/reduction of appropriate type so all that enemy needs to do is change to damage that we don't have covered and we are toast

that is part of the game here, chose what you think you need.

The AB of dragon shape isn't stable.You have only 50% chance to get 58-59 AB for the first attack per round, and there's also 50% chance you get only 46-47 AB for that attack, because dragon biting doesnt give AB bonus.So, on average the AB is 53-54 which I think is too low even for a monk.
If you think the dragon's AB is higher than most dedicated weapon masters, why not just increase the WM's AB?The change for the dragon will make it much easier for a pure pally to defeat a dragon, which won't reduce the imbalance but increase it.

I got 58 every first hit. Ya the pure Pally is a lil uber to me compared to all other classes.

I loose some DC on gaze from vampire (but if it was 25 or 30 it doesnt matter. It is still useless anyway)

My vampire at lvl 36 has a dc of 41 on gaze.

[burrahobbit]

The 79 ab argument is party buffs, not self buffed, using a power ammy i assume. I didnt see dragons running around killing anyone and everyone. I saw them hold there own and get killed by most melee chars. I just got my butt kicked by a sneak with my dragon. The dragon is dex based and has the highest ac available for a pure druid.

I assumed that dragons were allowed to have "true sight" to combat the tons of hipsers running around. A well built hipser will kill a dragon now with out too many problems.

Why do a pure druid at all anymore, you get the same dragon by using polymorph self scrolls. Looks like druids are obsolete now.

[Anelad]

I got 58 every first hit.......

That's lucky, but let me tell you the truth.
Here is a picture:

[DOGsoldier]

Then I must say it comes down to the builder as always.

[Big Billy]

What else is the vampire domination gaze DC based on?

I have 30 shifter lvls and a DC of 39

[Big Billy]

Although the previous vampire form had 80 AC and a high DC for the domination gaze...they could easily be killed.

They have nasty weaknesses.

Use mass heal...the hit points start dropping very quickly.

A pure paladin using lay on hands could bring a full health vampire to near death.

[Tashsha]

Hiya all ,sorry i'm a bit late on this thread ,but i knew there would b one.

I have a feeling the developer(s) where useing my 2 shifters as "nerf" guild lines. There are both made to have high AC's (ie. high natural Dex ,multipl +4 books ,+8 dex boots).

I've been playing NS4 for over 3 years ,and i waited 2 years b 4 making Tash & Silvara.

Silvara went from 106 AC to 88 AC ,and now 2 66 AC. But she did her bit 4 king & country

No biggie 4 me ,but if i was being used as a guild line ,it's going to hurt the newer players.

Tashsha
TheAngriestAngel