Bigby Tested

[renarð]

Lemme see if I'm doing this right...

If I make a 40 wizard (or even a full fort save class) toon with every possible feat and item: strong soul, luck of heroes, great fort, epic fort, 6 great con, 10 stat increases in con and every possible gear item that gives me +fort, and use endurance, and start with 20 con...

I still can't resist your 60 dc stunning all the time, if only there were a half dozen spells that could remove the effect, 1 that makes me immune, or a _CRAFTED_ item that could remove the effect maybe then I would think stunning fist was a fair ability and not have to complain on the forums .



There are ways to be immune to fist, bigby, wof, hips, assassin instajib, barb fear, harper sleep, and anything else viewed as powerful, just because you can't do it all in 1 build (no matter how many feats you throw at it) doesn't mean something is unbalanced.

[Korr]

use a clarity rod . . . it will remove the stun from my fist.

I made 1 toon specifically to test the skill balance of the bigby, and like I admitted he is only level 26 . . . which means 14 more ranks in each skill are to come.

PS: To get a 60 DC Stunning fist requires 10 improved stunning fist, thats 10 epic feats compared to your 7 you wasted to try and counter my stun. The feats for bigby help summons, and lots of other spells. The skills for bigby help wizards out immensely too

[renarð]

BIGBY versus RESIST Bigby hits per round
No feats versus No feats 53%
Max versus No feats 77%
No feats versus Max 20%
Max versus Max 43%

5 minutes in excell could have saved you 26 levels. Note: I assumed bigby wins on tie since i don't actually use the level 9 one at all, and only the lvl 7 one occasionally.

So anywhere from a 20% to 77% chance of being hit by hand in the first round, if it hits you after that I say push that hotkey faster. Of course crushing hand has to actually beat your ac first which should be less than 50% per round assuming you have at least 60ish ac, and of course if you have 70+ ac like me, you might only have ever been hit by 1 crushing hand ever (I was dispelled at the time, props to prim).


Looking at the "skill balance" outside of the removal/immunity and other conditions on the spell is as absurd as me looking only at the fort save on stunning fist.

Concentration helps you versus spell interruption and taunts
Spellcraft gives you saves versus spells
Just because your CoT with insane saves and nil casting ability doesnt benefit as greatly from them, doesn't negate their use

[disastro]

i think you are using the wrong build options to beat bigby.

high ac for the 9th level one + fom for the 7th == immune to bigby

the secondary checks are irrelevant and definitely stacked in favor of the caster. so dont ever get to the secondary check

[Korr]

The bonuses for and against CoT with feats are not calculated straight through. You dont get +10 to your roll for epic skill focus tumble, you dont get +3 for skill focus tumble . . . where do you get your numbers renard?

FoM is strippable, and the general run of a wizard is mords, then bigby, or bigby then mords. Either way youre left making checks without FoM.

So every build ever is supposed to have 70+ AC? Scrap the paladin, scrap the fighter, scrap the etc etc etc

If you cant figure out how to get enough fort save to beat my (not 60 DC) stunning fist, then sorry for you. Why does everyone want to attack my CoT? Do you get tired of running from him? To you get tired of dieing to him? Do something about it, hes a freaking test toon with holes as wide as the grand canyon in him.

[disastro]

FoM is strippable, and the general run of a wizard is mords, then bigby, or bigby then mords. Either way youre left making checks without FoM.

so you recast fom from your 99 cent rod. or dismissal it from the 59 cent rod. or kill the caster anyway because all they've done is slow you. all options are open because 7th bigby doesnt paralyze. welcome to move-countermove. 7th bigby is probably the best balanced one out of them all.

So every build ever is supposed to have 70+ AC? Scrap the paladin, scrap the fighter, scrap the etc etc etc

yes. or be in a party. welcome to 9th level bigby!

[Korr]

All they have done is slow you? Its bioware slow . . . so you get 1 attack around, even if you normally have 9 and you will never catch a caster haste or no

Also another side note . . . Bigby seems evocation focused (atleast for 9th level attack bonus) not conjuration focused.

But it seems that it takes arcane defense conjuration for the 7th level (the +2 vs checks) havent taken evo defense yet but I will to check that.

[renarð]

Korr, my original post is meant to parody you own post: A 1 dimensional strawman argument.

You continue to take 1 facet of the entire spell algorithm and focus on it (the skill checks).

I did not use skill focus feats at their full values, run your own numbers if you don't like mine.


I really can't believe you are complaining about the level 7 at all...
1) They stand still casting mords and bigby 7 (2 spell slots used)
2) You stand still casting a charge from a rod and spend the next few secs of the round gaining on them
3) You are closer to them than you were before

In the case of level 9...
1) They cast crushing hand

scenario 1)
2a) there is somewhere between a 50% (60ish ac) to 100% (70ish ac) chance the bigby _misses_ you
3a) the spell misses you click your rod and their level 9 spell was wasted

scenario 2)
2b) The bigby hits you
3b) there is between a 20% and 80% chance you win the skill check
4b) you win the check and you click your rod and their level 9 spell was wasted

scenario 3)
2c) The bigby hits you
3c) You lose the skill check
4c) You are stunned (with 60ish ac this is 10% to 40% of the time)
5c) Request 1 of half a dozen spells to remove the effect from your party, or get it from your 2nd toon

I think the hypocrisy in your posts speak volumes tho. 10 feats spent on trying to resist stunning fist are "wasted", 7 feats spent on trying to resist the bigby line means something is unfair. Having someone cast a clarity rod on a stunned person is ok, having someone cast a rod to remove bigby appears nowhere in your post.

If a mage is willing to max their casting stat, spend the extra 20 or so skill points maxing conc and sc beyond the reqs for epic spells, and then dump anywhere from 3 to 5 feats and use high level spell slots for a small chance at a stun which a person can often remove before it takes effect, and can certainly be removed by any other toon, well i'm afraid I can't really see that as anymore overpowered than the numerous other things on this server.

The only thing of value i see in this line of posts is a possbile bug fix. I am done posting on this topic.

[Korr]

The only thing of value i see in this line of posts is a possbile bug fix.

Took you that long to figure out what I was trying to say?

[cRaZy8or5e]

Thank you Korr for working out the details like you are. I really appreciate it. The checks have always seemed weird to me, and I never could figure em out, but never felt the need to, cuz well, I never wanted to put in the time. Big thank you from me for your work .

Edit: Bigsby is not overpowered right now as far as I can tell anyway, just confusing

[Korr]

Ok so far hes how it looks. . .

9th level bigby takes evocation focus to get better AB out of it
9th level bigby responds to arcane defense conjuration to get the +2 vs the skill checks
skill focus and epic skill focus discipline give +6 for your skill checks (total +8 for arcane defense, skill focus, epic skill focus)

7th level bigby doesnt use evocation focus for anything
7th level bigby does not response to arcane defense conjuration to get +2 vs the skill checks
skill focus and epic skill focus give +6 for your skill checks

I am guessing the 7th level bigby needs arcane defense evocation . . . working on getting that now on my toon

[disastro]

changelog:

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... a&start=45

post by joran about halfway down. look for the followup later on that page as well. i think it describes everything as you see it except for arcane defense conj on 7th bigby.

[Korr]

Yes but the statements there are ambiguous, "focus feats". Never did it say that epic skill focus adds 3 not 10.

[Eldaquen]

Renard wrote: "If a mage is willing to max their casting stat, spend the extra 20 or so skill points maxing conc and sc beyond the reqs for epic spells, and then dump anywhere from 3 to 5 feats and use high level spell slots for a small chance at a stun which a person can often remove before it takes effect, and can certainly be removed by any other toon, well i'm afraid I can't really see that as anymore overpowered than the numerous other things on this server.

The only thing of value i see in this line of posts is a possbile bug fix. I am done posting on this topic."

And since bugs was brought up in this thread I feel this is fair game.

To restate but from Creeping doom perspective: If a druid was willing to max Creeping doom by taking 6 feats: spell focus, greater spell focus, epic spell focus, spell penetration and epic spell penatration; not to meantion 40 lvls of druid class. Spend the higher level spell slots to use the spell just so have small chance someone would choose to walk into it after 30+rounds has past, even though a mage could mords spell away; server communities' opinion was spell overpowered and therefore bugged.

Just because a spell requires feats, dedication to one class or focus to max a spell does not mean the spell is not overpowered. In fact the focusing, dedication in caster levels and spending feats or skill points specifically to max maybe the very thing that results in a spell being overpowered and therefore deserving a nerf. As it was determined to be the fate of Creeping Doom.

I requote "The only thing of value i see in this line of posts is a possbile bug fix."

[disastro]

Yes but the statements there are ambiguous, "focus feats". Never did it say that epic skill focus adds 3 not 10.

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... 906#p45906
(yes i finally figured out how to link to a specific post on a page)

Bigbies changes:
...
- Additionally, since the range is smaller, I wanted to put something in so a target could conteract the focuses that a caster can receive in Conjuration spell focus. So, you can have Arcane Defense: Conjuration for a increased save of +2, Skill Focus in Tumble/Discipline (for Grasping/Crushing Hand) for +2, and Epic Skill Focus for +4 bonus. I realize that those are uncommon feats, but until we can think of a better way for a target to match the spell focus feats of the caster, we'll leave those in.

so to recap and save everyone the effort of re re retesting: the bigby bible is read this

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... 805#p41805

followed by this
http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... 906#p45906

and finally this