Linux, my dragon sux now, fix it!

[mgrjebbo]

Korr your calcs don't include improved expertise. So add 10 to those and you get up with 88 on a monk RDD dragon and 82 if you don't know the bug to get monk ac to stack.... couse people should be pointing out bugs like that not using them.

Anyway if everything here is correct then a 62 ab 82 ac build with +8 dr?

Sounds like it needs more balancing to me.

[Lokey]

Korr your calcs don't include improved expertise. So add 10 to those and you get up with 88 on a monk RDD dragon and 82 if you don't know the bug to get monk ac to stack.... couse people should be pointing out bugs like that not using them.

If this isn't made known to me by Sunday, all polymorphs will be removed.

[mgrjebbo]

Yeah If I knew i would be more than happy to let you know. I am just amazed that people are finding bugs like this and not bringing them forward.

Of course-

A wise Dm once said, "if a player finds an exploit, if they ever end up telling a staff member, it will be long after they feel they have gotten everything out of it possible." Think that one was TGPO

[Bargeld]

wouldn't imp. expertise bring the ab down to 52?

starting to sound like PM stats...

[mgrjebbo]

Was the 62 including the +10 that doesn't show on the character sheet?

If it was then yes it would be 52. Keep in mind i am only repeating what others have already said as far as stats, just wanted to add the imp expertise thing in there.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Yeah If I knew i would be more than happy to let you know. I am just amazed that people are finding bugs like this and not bringing them forward.

Of course-

A wise Dm once said, "if a player finds an exploit, if they ever end up telling a staff member, it will be long after they feel they have gotten everything out of it possible." Think that one was TGPO

It's really hard to know what's a bug and what's not because very little in the changelog is explained anymore. I assume that is because the staff don't want people finding ways to exploit changes.

But the result is, people not knowing whether or not changes were intentional or not.

For instance, Bard song stacks regardless of the +20 AB cap. Was this intentional or unintentional. I tell you I love it on our CoT's, makes for some crazy AC and AB.

The duration of WoF blindness no longer lasts for cleric lvl/5. Was this intentional? This was nowhere in the changelog, but sure why not.

There have been so many changes without clear explanation as to what exactly was changed or how that it makes it extremely difficult for us as players to figure out what is happening and how, let alone why.

I mean look at this thread. "We made changes to RDD dragons, and we may or may not keep them. Give us your feedback." How hard is it to say, "this is what we changed" or "this is the intent of our change" let us know if it worked or not. Don't ask for whether or not we like it because you have your own ideas about how things should be balanced and its obvious that you'll never be able to appease everyone when it come s to that. But at least let us know what your intent was and then we can better assist you in finding out whether or not your intent was met.

This "Tell me what you know or I'll nerf it all!" approach is amusing, but is only going to frustrate you and create panic among the inmates.

[mgrjebbo]

Yeah Crazy you have a point, however what was at issue in this thread was monk AC stacking with dragon shape. It has been well known for a very long time that this is not suppose to happen and therefore everyone should know that is a bug and to report it.

[burrahobbit]

if it was well known that this was not suposed to happen, why does it happen? I am discouraged that the devs seem to know less than the player base about how things work. You devs do get to see the code right?

[cRaZy8or5e]

Ummm, yeah. Did ya get the memo about the TPS reports?

Devs write the code, test the code, etc. They knew that monk AC stacked at the outset. I remember malik sending me tells about it. Maybe they thought they figured out how to fix it? I don't know. But to act like this is such a shock is beyond me. I'm pretty sure this wasn't the issue.

But whatever, the Devs are, in their own words, working with "shoddy" code trying to achieve balance that, in my opinion, will never be achieved. Worse, players have to basically work out what their characters can actually do based off of what the combat info tells them because the character sheet is incorrect. And you want detailed info about how exploits happen from the players?

for the record I haven't even made a monk RDD nor do I care. The issue at hand was not Monk AC stacking with RDD? or was it. Maybe the thread title was supposed to be, RDD AC isn't supposed to stack with monk AC! I thought the thread was supposed to be my dragon sux blah blah blah.

[Korr]

I got on shortly after posting and found someone to show the monk AC trick to Lokey. If you havent seen the info send me a PM and I will send you the info. The only character I have that can use that "bug" isnt 40, isnt AC dependent and well I wont say more cuz it could easily give it all away.

Since you all dont know what it is, and I cant really tell you the best I think I can say is it was an oversight. . . not a bug.

And to jebbo about 10 posts back, as (I think) Shhh pointed out I didnt factor in Armor Skin or Improved Expertise. Not every RDD would have those feats, and therefore not have to worry about that 10 or 2 AC. This thread was about the nerf to the dragon. . . not how to build one.

[Shhhhhhh]

Korr your calcs don't include improved expertise. So add 10 to those and you get up with 88 on a monk RDD dragon and 82 if you don't know the bug to get monk ac to stack.... couse people should be pointing out bugs like that not using them.

Anyway if everything here is correct then a 62 ab 82 ac build with +8 dr?

Sounds like it needs more balancing to me.

Korr didnt include tumble and armor skin which would mean 72 AC + 4 + 2 = 78 AC without improved expertise, this is ofcourse with max dodge and max dex bonus, so a dragons normal AC will be a bit lower. Unless you run around with a bard all the time and use crafted consumables.

RDD AB: 16 (base ab) + 10 (epic ab) + 1 ( Epic prowess) + 31 (Strenght with max bonus) 1 (Blinding speed) + 10 (Claw) -1 (Size) = 68 AB
Ofcourse this is if you pick your other classes to get highest ab.
Most RDD dragon build probably have a couple lower base ab, but you should still be able to get the 78 AC combined with the 68 ab.
And you're still not really close to the +20 AB cap so that ab can go up quite a bit more with buffs from others.

If these calcs are all correct, it's making me want to build a RDD

oh and i didnt know some builds didnt use tumble ac or armor skin ac

[Tsavong]

Also as well has having decent AC and AB by Shhhhhhh's calculations they also get close to 1k hp so you should be able to tank with one.

They also get to breath fire, and have a really annoying fear aura which, unless has been changed too, is a DC of 30+d20 making it the only fear aura I know of you don't need to work for (shifter dragons use wisdom, PDK use cha and barbs use intimidate)

So I don't think life is a bad as you all make out, but I have not fort any dragons since the chances so its hard for me to tell.

[rocketkai]

Just a reminder that dragon is the huge size, so it would be -2ab/ac all the time

[MLoki]

Also as well has having decent AC and AB by Shhhhhhh's calculations they also get close to 1k hp so you should be able to tank with one.

They also get to breath fire, and have a really annoying fear aura which, unless has been changed too, is a DC of 30+d20 making it the only fear aura I know of you don't need to work for (shifter dragons use wisdom, PDK use cha and barbs use intimidate)

So I don't think life is a bad as you all make out, but I have not fort any dragons since the chances so its hard for me to tell.

Wouldn't having a Cha based fear aura make more sense for this build? Since you have to have either Sorc or Bard (both Cha Based) this shouldn't be beyond the reach of any RDD.

[LinuxPup]

I dropped the dex on the Ancient Red Dragon... don't bother looking for other changes with it. The other dragon forms just got an appearance change and new breath weapons.... that's about it. I put a fix in yesterday for the wisdom exploit.... so whenever the mod gets rebuilt next it'll go in.