Linux, my dragon sux now, fix it!

[burrahobbit]

The problem with CoT is that you reach the +20 cap at around 66-70 ab, and a dragon starts his cap at 66-70. I wasnt really try'n to argue anything, i was just bored and decided it was time to post some nonsense.

We all bow to linux and his mastery..... wait, no i dont, Fafnir PWnD over linuxs' CoT any day of the week and 2 times on Sunday, especially considering the nerfs they imposed since the wipe. All Fafnir has to do is throw on imp exp and wait. Even with imp exp the dragon will still land a few hits while the cot will be waiting for 20 rolls. Once wrath and divine shield and and divine might are used up, game over.

[burrahobbit]

If your PM cleric was winning,its because the dragon didnt know you were a PM.

[Korr]

Last I checked the RDD dragons have a 50% vulnerability to cold. They are also huge and slow, so archers dont have huge problems with them either

[MLoki]

Because archers do so much damage? or can at least do damage faster then dragons can chug? Sorry, I just don't see it. Especially after seeing the polymorphed version of the dragon wilt in comparison to any other shifted form it kinda gets me that the other dragons have Sneak Attack immunity and anything even near the AB/AC that I have been seeing listed. Since I tend to play arcane casters alot I have noticed that many of the changes to shifted forms have affected the Shape Change spell even more so. Seeing as how even the best of forms don't get even close to the AB listed here regardless of how you use your other 23 levels. Not to mention the restriction on the length of the Shapechange spell. It just seems that these RDD builds have everything going for them and not much against them (once they reach 40th).

[Lokey]

For druid, arcane or scroll reader Shapechange is one spell among up to a hundred. I don't think it should be comparable to something that has a stat req, requires at least one feat and/or severely limited class selection? (I know Shapechange is nearly all powerful by the book DnD, even after several rewrites and errata. That doesn't mean it needs to be so here.)

My CoT ate dragons back in the day...I'd need to think about what you can do with an RDD dragon to beat a CoT.

[Nyeleni]

RDDs dont have any problems with CoTs nowadays. I usually have to pin them with some bullets or arrows before going into mêlée.

[burrahobbit]

For druid, arcane or scroll reader Shapechange is one spell among up to a hundred. I don't think it should be comparable to something that has a stat req, requires at least one feat and/or severely limited class selection? (I know Shapechange is nearly all powerful by the book DnD, even after several rewrites and errata. That doesn't mean it needs to be so here.)

My CoT ate dragons back in the day...I'd need to think about what you can do with an RDD dragon to beat a CoT.

Back in the day............Oh you mean b4 RDD dragons existed....... yeah ok, back then any good melee build would destroy a druid dragon/shifter dragon.

I dont know why we are even discussing nerfing RDD dragons when what needs the stinky end of the nerf stick the most is the 80+ ac, crit immune elemental shapeshifting SD's. Why do we nerf RDD's CoT's and Clerics when these things exist?

[mgrjebbo]

There are many different Tensers builds that can achieve 80+ ac and super high AB. It seems to be the standard these days I guess.

[MLoki]

There are many different Tensers builds that can achieve 80+ ac and super high AB. It seems to be the standard these days I guess.

Not even tensers can get you a 60+ AB self buffed and you'll be lucky if you get a 50+ AB using Polymorph or Shape Change spells. Whereas I'm not really looking for a comparable spell to the dedicated Dragon Forms what would be nice is the ability to make it through a fight or two without having to recast polymorph and losing over a dozen spell slots. Increasing the duration of these spells doesn't add that much to the "power" of these underpowered forms but does allow you the flexibility of going into a battle knowing you won't get caught with your pants down halfway through it. As I have said I only know this because I have several Arcane casters that specialize in melee.

[Tru3Fals3]

ok... lets clear a few things up for those that didnt seem to read all of my post, my dragon only has that ab and ac when theres a 40 cleric and a 40 bard around, on its own it has 69/70 which can easily be lowered, like i said before, my weapon master has that on its own, any cot can get that and higher on their own.

the weaknesses have already been listed here but the one shift a day has been ignored by most, this causes more problems then people realise, if i get stuck, no more dragon, cant breach a gap, no more dragon, cant go into small rooms etc things like that severly hamper it in pvp, manuervability is a huge issue for toons that large as anyone with a dragon will know.

now i know those numbers seem great and my dragon does have a very hefty melee presence, but i find this is balanced by a lot of things it cant do, especially in pvp, seems like you are only seeing the good and ignoring the bad, but thats just cause noone posting here has actually played an rdd dragon, funny thing is, 9 times out of 10, im logging my dodgy pure fighter build to defend sleeth.

im just trying to give a balanced perspective and some observations here, people see the numbers and ignore the writing around it....

i could list a number of ridiculous builds ive seen and whine about them till they get nerfed but id rather the challenge of making something better that can beat them.

could we at least keep this topic a discussion about pre and post nerf rdd or does it have to turn into another chance for people to whine about other things....

id really like to help get these changes finalized so i can decide if i wanna rebuild one and what changes i need to make, if linux or lokey need anymore info or want to use my dragon in some dastardly experiments then pls contact me ingame or pm me here, ill be happy to provide any help i can.

id also like to apologise to lokey for my first pms to him after the nerfs, i couldve actually sent usefull info instead of crying about my ac loss, i was just very upset and not thinking very clearly, its no excuse though so i am sorry.

[Shhhhhhh]

While it makes sense that the dragon's strenght is somehow compensated by the fact that its a 1 trick pony ( and 1 time even) , it does have some bad side- effects, people who fight the dragon often dont realize this 1 shift only weakness and how it can be annoying and just see this melee monster beating them down, while the player playing the dragon will be annoyed plenty of times surely, when he cant shift.
I know even playing a regular shifter, the shifting can be a pain, any time you spend in regular form is a huge risk.
Now that the RDD has been weakened a bit and made more in line with other chars, would it be terrible if the RDD could shift to dragon shape unlimited times?
It still means he'd have to unshift and reshift to walk through small spaces and he'd be quite vulnerable during that time, but its not such a big weakness and annoyance.

[Nyeleni]

hey, while you're at it, make it unlimited times for divine wrath and job tokens too... GEEE

[burrahobbit]

ok... lets clear a few things up for those that didnt seem to read all of my post, my dragon only has that ab and ac when theres a 40 cleric and a 40 bard around, on its own it has 69/70 which can easily be lowered, like i said before, my weapon master has that on its own, any cot can get that and higher on their own.

the weaknesses have already been listed here but the one shift a day has been ignored by most, this causes more problems then people realise, if i get stuck, no more dragon, cant breach a gap, no more dragon, cant go into small rooms etc things like that severly hamper it in pvp, manuervability is a huge issue for toons that large as anyone with a dragon will know.

now i know those numbers seem great and my dragon does have a very hefty melee presence, but i find this is balanced by a lot of things it cant do, especially in pvp, seems like you are only seeing the good and ignoring the bad, but thats just cause noone posting here has actually played an rdd dragon, funny thing is, 9 times out of 10, im logging my dodgy pure fighter build to defend sleeth.

im just trying to give a balanced perspective and some observations here, people see the numbers and ignore the writing around it....

i could list a number of ridiculous builds ive seen and whine about them till they get nerfed but id rather the challenge of making something better that can beat them.

could we at least keep this topic a discussion about pre and post nerf rdd or does it have to turn into another chance for people to whine about other things....

id really like to help get these changes finalized so i can decide if i wanna rebuild one and what changes i need to make, if linux or lokey need anymore info or want to use my dragon in some dastardly experiments then pls contact me ingame or pm me here, ill be happy to provide any help i can.

id also like to apologise to lokey for my first pms to him after the nerfs, i couldve actually sent usefull info instead of crying about my ac loss, i was just very upset and not thinking very clearly, its no excuse though so i am sorry.

That was an absurdly long whine. What i was whining about was that you just start your +20 cap at 69/70 and a cot hits the cap at 69/70. It seems like a good whine and as whiners go, i am a great judge at what a good whine entails. Now if you excuse me, i need to go whine about my ice cubes not being cold enough.

*changes name to "whinerhobbit king of all whiners"

P.S. I dont have to play a RDD dragon to understand everything in your post......
P.P.S. I choose to ignore all good points if they dont help my case and refuse to concede to any resonable ideas that dont make CoT's absolutely unstoppable....

[rocketkai]

I think most of the RDD dragons start +20 ab cap at 26(lvl 40 bab)+31(str modifier)+1(epic prowess)-2(size modifier)=56 (capped at 76 although it's still uber). The dragon claw should count towards 20 cap. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Amoenotep]

make sure we are keeping this topic on point...we'll get around to nerfing everyone's build eventually