Food for thought

[mining]

Yeah, but original topic didn't have much going for it, so the new thread direction is an improvement and still technically under the title "Food for thought" .

In other news, I raided MA last night with a ranger/SD and it took me about 15 minutes to clear the cradle - crit immune constructs and 50% conceal mages are enraging, lol. And then there wasn't even anything IN the cradle.

[hond]

just some adds:
- true seeing scrolls lvl 9: i waste 50 k xps and some nasty quantity of gold in order to craft true seeing scrolls for my umd toons... As in SL we don't have a token to do that... It will posible to increase the lvl casting, and as same time the duration.??..i burned like 50 of them in 2-3 hours pvps... i will not hope to receive the same token as NC/AO, we have to be happy now...our best token is now apply to shape...but i have to pass like 2 hours to grind that amount of xps, and the gold is other point... Scrolls are very expensive...will funny to see the jobs token really review...
- Broken token +3 AB....i know it sound like a deja-vue, but hell +3 AB is an atomic token....just saying that you need 6 epic feats to take that will have to convince any devs that those tokens are just ridiculous....
You take two pure barbs 1 in AO 1 in SL...AO's one will run with a true seeing token , who can't be dispeled, and +3 AB compared with the same SL barb, who will run with tons of dagger with See inv on it (dispeled by a gob lvl1), and a very very nice conceal of around 15 % vs 99 % of melee toons (blind fight)...SL barb will make 1d8 acid more than AO one, but with probability of touching his attack less than AO's one...
- Evil subraces: as SL is the only faction, who have to set a determinate alignement, only SL/MA coalition will have to use subrace with evil alignment on it ...this will compensate a little all the weaker point SL faction run with...
And on last point if some changes need any way of server rip, i vote for it...

To mining : do you even loose some HPs on your intent...fire balls from golems are cheap...in other point blind fight help a lot vs concealed targets...

[hond]

side note: is the new sistem of saves will affect the roar/gyth token??
-a will save vs time stop will good to implement also...or just apply time stop to ALL map ...
- mantle spells blocking more some spells ?? totaly useles vs icestorm, melf acid, all bigby spells., or perhaps a spell who can block bigby effect?? you can chain lvl 7 bigby with lvl9 and there is no counter to that.... mantle seems same S..t ,as globe of invulnerability, only usefull against instant death spells... Is UMD only used to gear stuff, that you can't use whitout it ??

[hond]

And finaly...MA can be constant raiding , as there is a bind point that all factions can use (in the tent) draggy is 5 map from gargaroth...you don't have to think a lot about the gold you carry...with 200 k gold on you, you can die like 40 times whitout restocking gold.

[Nyeleni]

just some adds:
- true seeing scrolls lvl 9: i waste 50 k xps and some nasty quantity of gold in order to craft true seeing scrolls for my umd toons... As in SL we don't have a token to do that... It will posible to increase the lvl casting, and as same time the duration.??..i burned like 50 of them in 2-3 hours pvps... i will not hope to receive the same token as NC/AO, we have to be happy now...our best token is now apply to shape...but i have to pass like 2 hours to grind that amount of xps, and the gold is other point... Scrolls are very expensive...will funny to see the jobs token really review...
- Broken token +3 AB....i know it sound like a deja-vue, but hell +3 AB is an atomic token....just saying that you need 6 epic feats to take that will have to convince any devs that those tokens are just ridiculous....
You take two pure barbs 1 in AO 1 in SL...AO's one will run with a true seeing token , who can't be dispeled, and +3 AB compared with the same SL barb, who will run with tons of dagger with See inv on it (dispeled by a gob lvl1), and a very very nice conceal of around 15 % vs 99 % of melee toons (blind fight)...SL barb will make 1d8 acid more than AO one, but with probability of touching his attack less than AO's one...
- Evil subraces: as SL is the only faction, who have to set a determinate alignement, only SL/MA coalition will have to use subrace with evil alignment on it ...this will compensate a little all the weaker point SL faction run with...
And on last point if some changes need any way of server rip, i vote for it...

To mining : do you even loose some HPs on your intent...fire balls from golems are cheap...in other point blind fight help a lot vs concealed targets...

-You can buy TRUE SEEING helmets. Yes, it isn't a good alternative. But at least you don't burn through xp.


-Sry for picking on déjà vu. It's not only you writing this word wrongly.
But one on one comparisons can't be balanced. As you should include all the other stuff from each faction into the mix. I know, real balance isn't really achieved, but at least we got something close to it.
Although SL really could use a boost on it's job items, but so could TC and RK compared to AO, NC, MA. As the former 3 factions have job items for uses in very specific moments, but the latter 3 are in general really great to have.
And don't let it fool you: the extra damage from TC and SL is hardly as good as a damage shield.

Or let's look at mages. They dip the balance hugely in favour of the faction using them. Well, so do clerics and bards (this one imo less important) but at least these classes are in every faction. Although we should maybe ban magic domain from all the factions but TC and NC to balance the field a bit with all the mages... Ironically enough allowing magic domain only in NC and TC is somehow counter-intuitive.
Maybe TC and NC learn how to be immune to bigsby once they reach lvl 40?

And finaly...MA can be constant raiding , as there is a bind point that all factions can use (in the tent) draggy is 5 map from gargaroth...you don't have to think a lot about the gold you carry...with 200 k gold on you, you can die like 40 times whitout restocking gold.

Yes, but AO is far worse, even if you have to burn through gold. That tent is hardly an issue.


But really we should open different threads with all these issues and discuss each one separately or else this will be just a huge mess of a thread.

[Korr]

NC Alignments: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good
SL Alignments: Evil

MA Alignments: Any Non Good (6 options total)
TC Alignments: LN, NG, N, CN, CG


SL alignment restriction isnt that bad... infact SL/MA is pretty directly comparitive to the TC/NC alignment choices.

Maybe what we should be looking at is :
RK Alignments: All
AO Alignments: All

Arent all the basic chromatic/metallic dragons dichotomous on their alignment? (ie : no neutral) So why isnt AO restricted to always be LG, LE, CG, CE ?

As for dwarves... we just need a "drunk" alignment!

As far as the SL vs AO barbarians... even with blind fight a miss chance is better than not. They hit 10% less? It only takes 20 rounds to swing 100 times... so its basically like one of them gets to swing only 90 times!

[mining]

Things to consider: Barb vs Barb vs Barb, it's pretty clear who wins ; the RK one that steals AB and AC from their counterparts. Fighter vs Fighter vs... vs Fighter? RK again, arguably. Highest disc, most AB/AC.

But they don't get TS!

Mind, if every faction had the same stuff... it'd always be based on numbers.

MA token is like +2 AB/AC to your whole party, including SL toons. It's real strong. So is the AO token's AB/AC/Saves, but a mage doesn't really care about that, nor does a HiPSer.

[Opie Crimeria]

And finaly...MA can be constant raiding , as there is a bind point that all factions can use (in the tent) draggy is 5 map from gargaroth...you don't have to think a lot about the gold you carry...with 200 k gold on you, you can die like 40 times whitout restocking gold.

I think the distance from the Agmar dragon to Garagoth is about the best for raid/defending. The line of defense can be moved up very easily from MA; or pulled back as needed. It is easier for raiders without being overly easy. There is always the threat of someone raiding from Grey Shores just to make sure the defenders get a pick nervous about over-extending.

RK (and NC) is just a damn pain to get too. NC and RK are nice to defend because it takes an effort to even get to the relic room. As in previous Relic events; NC can sit on a cradle full of relics while it takes attackers lots of time to even to attempt a raid.

AO is definitely easy to get too (from falme); but getting a relic out can be difficult. Dragons are a damn good line of defense.

TC is worse by far. Three short maps from a dragon. Two very good exits for AO raiders. No door whatsoever. Relic room is in a cave; no hope of NS4 ranger outdoor hips (which would go both ways); even a crappy epic TC hipser ranger. It's even a normal run to Ave dragon; compared to most other cradles.

Fun damn server anyways.

[hond]

MA token is like +2 AB/AC to your whole party, including SL toons. It's real strong. So is the AO token's AB/AC/Saves, but a mage doesn't really care about that, nor does a HiPSer.

it's like , but not totaly...a bard song will nulify that effect, giving only +2 AB/AC , in AO/NC case it will add to their token for a +5 AB....we still speak about a difference of +3...

-You can buy TRUE SEEING helmets. Yes, it isn't a good alternative. But at least you don't burn through xp

that's true for the xp....but considering that your SPOT drop 20 when TS raise, you switch to TS helm and drop 10 spot more.... and the duration still the same problem...you pass the PvPs recasting TS...

Although SL really could use a boost on it's job items, but so could TC and RK compared to AO, NC, MA. As the former 3 factions have job items for uses in very specific moments, but the latter 3 are in general really great to have.
And don't let it fool you: the extra damage from TC and SL is hardly as good as a damage shield.

why do you think we don't use damage token in SL?? sure we do...and i never speak about the damage shield...i'm agree with you, is at same level as damage shield token... the mask can only be used in inside place..making it prolly useless in outdoor pvp.. so yes our damage token is on same level as damage token, but you still have THE eye token and the AB token...in small number pvp those "little" advantages make BIG differences...a mage can't dispell that TS... and that's the major fail of this token... also the stack with TS spell is pretty fail to...as you play in a faction who take benefits from those tokens, you can't completly understand how the annoying they are..
Just saying that many SL players just start to make the jobs now with old 40 toons, and you will understand that our tokens are not really so cool ,as you want to convince me..in last point, damage token is acid...wich is resistible...NC damage is Divine, wich is not...

[hond]

making a fast resumen...
SL have 2 token : 1 usefull in pvp vs a no ER toon, and 1 usefull in some case (if you there is a inside place near PvP, and you can't get better conceal, wich is not hard)...a wizard/mage will not bother to make those jobs...
NC/AO : have 3 huge tokens 100 % usefull in pvp , and by all classes (casters include) undispel TS, bump saves for no melee toons, and damage shield for NC...

[hond]

As far as the SL vs AO barbarians... even with blind fight a miss chance is better than not. They hit 10% less? It only takes 20 rounds to swing 100 times... so its basically like one of them gets to swing only 90 times!

you wrong, difference of 3 AB is more than that ,as you apply that difference on all attacks...first attack will have to touch on both case, but difference start to appear while your ab drop by 5, on succesives attacks...

example: SL tanks will start with 60 ab, than 55,50,45 and 60 for haste attack...for 63/58/53/48/63 ...barb vs barb, sl barb will touch 3 times average in a round, while AO barb will touch 1 more time...

and again +3 AB/AC/save is 6 epic STR/dext +3 preepic feats (those give only +2 to saves) + armor skin...all that in 1 job token...we speak about 7 Epic feats and 3 preepic feat and you get some extra tips... Those tokens need to be riped...or give one similar to all factions

[mining]

btw, Hond, there's an edit button. Start using it, triple posts like that are a waste of time if people quote + will incur Gorm's eternal wrath.

and again +3 AB/AC/save is 6 epic STR/dext +3 preepic feats (those give only +2 to saves) + armor skin...all that in 1 job token...we speak about 7 Epic feats and 3 preepic feat and you get some extra tips... Those tokens need to be riped...or give one similar to all factions

If you want to talk about zany hyperbole, the SL tokens are insane, man. 2d8 UNRESISTABLE damage is like, an epic and a preepic feat and then EVEN BETTER because it's unresistable. Your HOLY [censored] INSANE conceal token is also 5 epic feats right there.

In contrast, the AO tokens are free! You get one from just having a caster in your party (like that's hard, or you could just use scrolls - too easy) and the other can be mitigated by just a curse song from a friendly bard!

And don't even get me started on the NC tokens - a short duration true seeing that you can get around just by not being a sneak or waiting 4.5 minutes? Way too easy, and let's not even discuss how bad a damage shield is when all you need to do is use ranged attacks on it. (Ok that was a bit weak, as you can tell NC tokens are, as usual, great. It's hard to sell cheese as yoghurt.)

And the TC one is by every metric worse than the SL one!

By this logic, I pronounce the SL one OP, and will begin to nerf it to hell within the hour!

No.

Also,

you wrong, difference of 3 AB is more than that ,as you apply that difference on all attacks...first attack will have to touch on both case, but difference start to appear while your ab drop by 5, on succesives attacks...

Well, so does conceal, that applies every attack too. A +3 AB difference is ~= to a 15% hit chance on attacks with a non-trivial chance to hit. For AB>>>AC, AB <<< conceal. For AB <<< AC, AB <<< conceal. Barb vs Barb, AC should be trivial; so 50% vs 0% conceal should be... somewhat noticeable.

Also;

it's like , but not totaly...a bard song will nulify that effect, giving only +2 AB/AC , in AO/NC case it will add to their token for a +5 AB....we still speak about a difference of +3...

This is kind of a fallacy. There's a delta of 1 AB/AC from the AO token, but note: A team of 1 AO and 4 RK does not benefit from 5x +3 AB, but a team of 1 MA and 4 SL get's full benefit out of MA's AoE AB/AC dropper.



I'm not opposed to discussion - but I am opposed to useless hyperbole which has no basis in fact.

[Nyeleni]

SNIP

Although SL really could use a boost on it's job items, but so could TC and RK compared to AO, NC, MA. As the former 3 factions have job items for uses in very specific moments, but the latter 3 are in general really great to have.
And don't let it fool you: the extra damage from TC and SL is hardly as good as a damage shield.

why do you think we don't use damage token in SL?? sure we do...and i never speak about the damage shield...i'm agree with you, is at same level as damage shield token... the mask can only be used in inside place..making it prolly useless in outdoor pvp.. so yes our damage token is on same level as damage token, but you still have THE eye token and the AB token...in small number pvp those "little" advantages make BIG differences...a mage can't dispell that TS... and that's the major fail of this token... also the stack with TS spell is pretty fail to...as you play in a faction who take benefits from those tokens, you can't completly understand how the annoying they are..
Just saying that many SL players just start to make the jobs now with old 40 toons, and you will understand that our tokens are not really so cool ,as you want to convince me..in last point, damage token is acid...wich is resistible...NC damage is Divine, wich is not...

Look, Hond, I agreed with you, SL has less useful job tokens than NC MA and AO. Even RK is prolly better. But SL isn't alone, TC has the same problem with their tokens. If you can't accept another point of view, play at least once out of another faction, to get a feeling, as right now your world is very narrow or very subjective, IMO.
And as Mining said, triple posts are annoying.

[hond]

i'm totally agree with you nyeleni...tc token is horible too...i will never discuss it...SL one is better..
to mining, as discution is free, i will put here my opinion, as the "father " of AO token, you will defend the good balanced it is...np with it...you speak about the conceal token as a permanent fact, but during a raid you prolly can't use that token...you need to be INSIDE place to make it active...
2 days ago, we have a 2-3 hours pvp vs a TC/NC/AO coaliton raiding MA and battle was in plain and waste of anghmar...no way to use the best token of NS4...25 % conceal in mele is good, but the activation is very very restrictive...an exemple...make the AO token activation only near a dragon...you need RDD on ur side, or near travels dragons, or in sleeth...and then i will stop whining about the OP , you made those token...

This is kind of a fallacy. There's a delta of 1 AB/AC from the AO token, but note: A team of 1 AO and 4 RK does not benefit from 5x +3 AB, but a team of 1 MA and 4 SL get's full benefit out of MA's AoE AB/AC dropper.

yeah...lol...and as the 4 SL just standing around to MA guys to take benefit of it, they can be spam all together at same time with spell/crumble/and roar effect....speaking about MA token to compared with AO token is just like to say :OMG i made an OP token for the AO guys, but no matter SL+MA token is prolly same power ....i'm still speaking about SL token, feel free to speak about MA one...MA token have same effect as a bard song and will not stack with those effect..that my point...so a bard + AO token is +5 AB/AC , a bard + MA token will stay +2 AB/AC....
And,in 1 vs 1 SL vs AO, i don't really care about, what kind of benefit i will gain, if a MA guys will near me...i just look what i have, and the posibility that gave me, and look what oponent have and the posibility that give him...

If i have to raid AO, where i can use my supraOP conceal token, if defender are camping on gate and i just come by there...in Beryn lodge?? so yes...i use my supraOP token in beryn lodge, run 3 maps to sleeth, 1 player waiting me in gate and engage me, as he saw me from far away, he can start to use his AB/AC/save token, just when my supraconceal just raise...yeah your right...SL have the best two token ever seen in NS4...and that conceal token is just to OP, RIP it at same time you'll rip AO's one.

i'm a nub and your right , and evidently your very imparcial...my bad so...

[Daltian]

Just wanted to correct false statements about the melee conceal.
25% conceal isn't 15% miss chance after blind fighting, its 6,25% miss chance.
50% is 25% miss chance and 33% is 10,89% miss chance in melee.

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone, I just hate to see bad logic/math being used as argument!