NS4 going PvM only?

[Korr]

Because it feedback loops. The faction in control has 30% more toons, and thus has a better chance of remaining in control.

Thus :

To the victor goes the spoils

[Rufio]

And then all these problems arise where pvp sucks because the factions without relic control don't have as many players. This thread is pretty much a result of a feedback loop of AO controlling the relics.

[Opie Crimeria]

I like the idea of the relics providing a bonus; and I like how the scale slides. It has been a very pleasant surprise whenever I get a relic bonus during PvM.

If someone PvMs only, or only cares to PvM duing the login then the location/control/status/whatever doesn't matter. Their is not a xp % loss if their faction does not have their bonus. The control of the relics is irrevelant to that person.

I think their needs to be some type of bonus associated with the capturing and holding of relics. 35% a bit much . .could be. It gives a tangible (yes in a virtual made up world) feedback that the efforts put in provide beneficial output. Their is not a way to establish individual login or toon bonuses; a faction way is pretty easy to implement and handle.

I don't know if taking away the bonus will affect PvP. I really like Monkey's idea of an added version of matched PvP. Heck any version of PvP is mostly good.

Somehow implement xp via PvP; with specifically tagged toons (something additional to guild tags)? Only enable PvP xp on certain maps or only count it in relic rooms of if a map holds a relic (PvP around actively transporting relics)? Or a Net Sum kills/deaths counter; say when have +25 kills get a trip to the Prize room or a beating from Chase and reset counter. But then the age old question of how to countrol and prevent this from being abused; becaue NS4 has proven any good deed will not go unpunished. There are players who will intentionally abuse anything just to.

[Frendel]

Maybe make cradles only hold 4 relics at max so alliances have to split them. Would let the victors keep the spoils, but wouldn't be as bad as all 7 of them being guarded by a huge group all at once in the same spot.

[Revel]

To clarify a few things:
In the years prior to the implementation of the new AO jobs, I can recall dozens of raids on RK and absolutely no raids on AO. Of course I'm not saying that AO/RK didn't build anything in AO, just that most of the defending builds were RK and that's where AO/RK typically chose to keep the relics. That changed dramatically after AO got the jobs. A large part of it was probably the desire to explore AO more fully. Some of it may be tactical. Only recently has AO/RK been splitting relics more evenly between RK and AO.

I defended AO for a long period of time without job tokens. I can remember thinking how fantastic I finally get ts for my Hns fighter and I might have a chance to see the sd that were coming daily, little did I know that it does not work against a sd. I didn’t understand the other token. The move to AO for me was started with " Yeah lets make an RDD! And get out of this dark dungeon” Not a "Here is your build sheet, get it to 40 and Pk and defend" order. The "dramatic" change was before the AO job tokens. Surely we can move to our summer house when the feeling takes us?

I partied a lot with you and two of your friends when you first came to the server, starting out in that tour guide role and you were very appreciative. You all joined RR far too early, IMO, and I can remember your complaints about being required to leave those parties to defend or not being able to explore your own build ideas but instead having to go off the build sheets you were given. Not so much from you, but from your friends I remember comments essentially labelling your guild leaders with some of the terms Bargeld has chosen.

I started in rk and played there a year and a half before being invited to RR. I joined Hns much later. Too quick? I was offered other factions to join. One of the other two friends I started with on that fateful day began in SL, well before I came and played there until the wipe took his toons. The other left early after six months because of ill health. I do not know who you are referring too that complained about leaving parties to defend, I was always waiting to be asked to join. I waited a year and a half . I never had a build sheet forced on me and I have never made comments about my guild leaders using terms Bargeld has chosen. I can't think of anyone in our guild that would. Our guild leaders are very generous with time and help when I'm stuck building my own toons. I am unaware of anyone being given build sheets and having to build off them. It was certainly never done to me or my friends. What a horrific picture you paint!
I did appreciate your help at times Monkey. I thank you again for any help you gave me and that of Twig who, when our own faction was so poorly populated I asked advice on protocol etc. I enjoy this server, mainly for its people. Even the ones that annoy me and I have little in common with. It all goes toward making up a richer world of variety.
I agree with Nulesi, I too have often wonder how to appease the factions that don't often get a relic bonus. He does speak for me when he says "we don’t raid to hog the relics". Most of us raid for PvP or from boredom.

The 'No dual logging in PvP' wont affect me in any way. Although it may mean less opposition from the other side.

[nulesi]

How about this- keep the relics, ditch the bonus.

Best damn thing i've heard yet

The only thing I worry about is the motivation to raid, or more importantly, defend. I am not sure people would defend, if there was nothing 'to' defend. There has to be some sort of incentive imo. I think this would lessen the PvP on the server...and this server has always been attractive mainly because of the heightened PvP.

[Eldaquen]

Many ages ago in a land familure but somehow different than the realm we fight in today the relic bonus for 7 captured relics was 50%. Obviously it was reduced to 35%. At the time there was a large uproar from the controlling faction as they claimed the reduction was unfair and punative to their faction, but the dev's had their reasons for the adjustment (mainly something to do with ECL3 races). Eventually relic PvP resumed with the same ferocity as before.

Is removing the bonus an answer? I don't know. I am not in favor of the change, as I do covet the bonus even though I am acustomed to not having it. Perhaps just perhaps adding boons for holding your own relic not associated with xp bonus would spur more pvp. Example if your faction holds their own then caster spell DC's receive a bump. Or maybe each relic could be assigned it's own boon (ie one grants a spell DC bump, while another bestows damage reduction, and another elemental reduction, or melee damage bump, or one grants AC bump, etc.) But this boon only applies to the relic's home faction, not capture's factions. Another feature to make each faction more unique from each other, and more of a reason to want to hold your own relic even if unable to hold more than your own.

To avoid relics being in one place for too long: Perhaps just perhaps the combined power of the relics being held in one place for too long could cause negative consequences to the holding faction, so the defender city maybe inclined to let them go after awhile (no negative after 1st and 2nd reset, 1 negative consequence after 3rd reset, 2 consequences after 4th reset and so on...). Consequences to occur only within 2 maps of the cradle room (concentrated power) and might be a minus to spell DC's, or to AB, or to AC, or to saves. Or perhaps the gods of the factions without the relics become angery at the holding city after a set peroid of time (say two resets) resulting in high CR but 0 xp npc spawns in the holding city's cradle room and main map which target only that defender faction if and when raiders are present.

Along the same line if your faciton does not have their own relic after 3 consecutive resets then any 35+ toon from that faction would receive a consequence when not within 4 maps of a cradle room. IE minus to AB, AC, spell DC's Saves...kinda of a curse by their factions' gods to incent players to go get their factions relic.

[Ajantis.]

Relics are being reset randomly as it is. What's the incentive to relic raid anymore?

I invested an hour or so gathering relics for NC yesterday (after the server came back up), defended a bit afterwards for them. Switched to a lowbie to get some XP. Relics reset. All in a span of 3 hours. This seems to happen to me all the time..... Infact, I even had a relic reset from my hands just a couple weeks ago. Icicles of Auril!

[$chase$]

lmao you made my day thank you

[Bargeld]

All this talk of changes to the bonus for relic holding is nonsense. No dual logging in PvP is enough incentive for me to fight.

[Shamedmonkey]

This thread is really funny.

You all should continue to troll each other. Hostility fosters good PvP. I never played better than when AORK were my blood rivals.

[Monkey]

Hostility fosters good PvP.

No. Hostility fosters sleazy tactics and drives people away from PvP and the server in general. Too much hostility is what has led us to where we are now.

What I've read from Nulesi in this thread and from Revel via PM helped me understand and made me sympathize with what the newer AORK's are dealing with. A PvM party experience today with an anonymous player behind a public HNs toon set me back again though. In my view it's still not worth the frustration of engaging in PvP with AORK because of the tactics employed.

[VagaStorm]

How about scaling the relic bonus differently, say 15 or even 20 for holding your own +1 then scale the rest til 30. Most likely the relics will be shared about more, and you dont have to have them all to make it worth fighting...

[BlkMamba]

Well, i think Frendel had the right idea, limiting the amount of relics in 1 cradle would be a good thing,
and this is just a suggestion, since the xp change, why not give alittle xp for relic captures to make up for
what the toons arent getting for mobs in the relic room now
Might make it alittle more worth actually goin and getting them to begin with
just a thought, hell for all i know its been suggested and flamed down but i'm to lazy to check


Mamba..

[Monkey]

How about scaling the relic bonus differently, say 15 or even 20 for holding your own +1 then scale the rest til 30. Most likely the relics will be shared about more, and you dont have to have them all to make it worth fighting...

I think for most people the size of the relic bonus doesn't matter. PVP can be especially fun because it's usually more dynamic and challenging than PvM. (Severely unbalanced PvP or PvP against cheaters and exploiters isn't so fun.)

Most players (outside AORK) regularly play toons in many different factions because the game is more interesting and fun that way. TCNC especially tends to make mage related builds outside of our factions. If we have the relic bonus in TC or NC we'll log whatever we have that can party with our friends, whether or not it will get the bonus. In that case, having the bonus is more a matter of factional pride, rather than something that makes a real difference in leveling.