2 Handed weapons

lord_modred · Post by **lord_modred** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:33 am

i would point out that the only weapon that carries with it a X4 crit is in fact a 2 handed weapon, now im not sure about you people, but i would call that a distinct advantage. throw weapon master on that and you've got a X5 crit

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:40 am

that weapon is 1d8 x4. a dwarven waraxe is 1d10 x3. for sacrificing a sield you get a max of +2 damage. id take the shield thank you =P

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:20 am

Making a feasible scythe master would require cleric and monk levels...
Also don't forget that that 4x crit mod requires 1 whole feat to even be able to use.

Also the scythe is 2d4 not 1d8

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:33 am

there was a member of the DD once upon a time that was a WM in the 2 bladed sword...he did pretty decent sometimes..

Post by **LinuxPup** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:17 pm

Pale masters make good scythe wielders too...Take 20 levels in fighter, then 3 bard, then 10 pm... your AC is going to suck no matter what, but if you have no crit/sneak immunity its amazing how much longer you'll last.

Of course your limited to only one prestige class, so you can't be a weapon master too.

seriouslynow · Post by **seriouslynow** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:19 pm

Yeah, the scythe is very formidable but I have no idea why it is the only 4x dmg weapon. It just never made sense that a battle axe or dwaraxe would have 3x crits just like a great axe. Same with GS vs a LS.
The issue is still the same, with all things considered it sux to use a 2handed weapon. Having the +50% str bonus is really minimized by all the immunity dmg there is and how often do people actually try to disarm you, really? Regardless of what's realistic this is still a game and it is more fun to have more options. Meaning, give us a reason to maybe lose the shield. It doesn't have to be clearly the best option but make it so there is a dilemma. Ooo, I really need that bludgening 10/- and extra ac but gosh, that greatsword is soo kewl and will definitely hurt more...
Exotic weapons are kewl, but should also have a slight advantage for requiring the feat. and I don't just mean the difference between the 1d8 and 1d10 dmg from a LS to bas+ard sword or katana.

seriouslynow · Post by **seriouslynow** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:24 pm

LinuxPup wrote:Of course your limited to only one prestige class, so you can't be a weapon master too.

Uh oh, is this true for all builds? You can only have one prestige class?

PeregrineV · Post by **PeregrineV** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:03 pm

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:53 pm

Death Dealer1 wrote:there was a member of the DD once upon a time that was a WM in the 2 bladed sword...he did pretty decent sometimes..

Why make a warrior that does only decent sometimes? Slap a shield on him and he will do better than decent most of the time.

LinuxPup wrote:Pale masters make good scythe wielders too...Take 20 levels in fighter, then 3 bard, then 10 pm...

You got your foot in the door with that idea... unfortunately it got squished off before you could get through. 20 fighter in the first 20 makes sense for the ab, but your saves are going to be crap. As for a build using Bard and PM and having crap AC... again you did something wrong.

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:24 pm

JesterOI wrote:Making a feasible scythe master would require cleric and monk levels...
Also don't forget that that 4x crit mod requires 1 whole feat to even be able to use.

Also the scythe is 2d4 not 1d8

LinuxPup wrote:Pale masters make good scythe wielders too...

seriouslynow wrote:Yeah, the scythe is very formidable but I have no idea why it is the only 4x dmg weapon. It just never made sense that a battle axe or dwaraxe would have 3x crits just like a great axe. Same with GS vs a LS.

Why use a scythe, when you can use a dwarven waraxe and do almost the same amount of damage (1d10 x 3 = 30; 2d4 x 4 = 32) AND use a shield? or dual wield them, get nearly twice the damage, more attacks and only lose 2 AB.

Even if you go WM, 1d10 x 4 = 40; 2d4 x 5 = 40. I dont see a difference do you?

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:49 pm

Dualwiled Dwarven Waraxes is -4 to all attacks.
Only small or tiny size together or 1 medium and 1 small or tiny gets the -2.

One thing that the scythe has that is an advantage for it is that it is slashing&piercing dmg. Sure it gets hit by damage resistance more often, but ppl use the scythe for its crits. S&P dmg type requires that BOTH slashing AND piercing immunity be present to prevent dmg.
Which means that 150 point crits get through most often with only -10 or -15 dmg instead of -75 from 50% immune and -10 or -15 from resist. And in NS having both immunities to protect leaves you with only 25% immune, so even then the defender is still getting nailed with a sizable crit.

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:52 am

lordvan52681 wrote: Even if you go WM, 1d10 x 4 = 40; 2d4 x 5 = 40. I dont see a difference do you?

Um yes there is a difference. You know that bonuses on weapon get multiplied as well. like you know if I had +1d10 slashing +1d6 cold +2 neg energy damage we would get:

1d10 + 1d10 +1d6 +2 x 4 = 112
2d4 + 1d10 +1d6 + 2 x 5 = 130

Of course gain between x4 and x5 crit is less than gain between x2 and x3 crit.

I don't understand WM scythers. Going from x4 to x5 brings 25% damage increase. If you use scim WM, going from x2 to x3 brings 50% damage increase. People are dumb though and go WM with scythes and axes.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:29 am

WM is best done with Kukri, Scim, Rapier, Morningstar, or Scythe.

Also Scythe compared to Dwaraxe isn't so simple as comparing base dmgs and crit multipliers.
Both are str weapons, therefor let's take a decent str for a warrior, 42, nice and even.
42 str = 16 strdmg

Dwaraxe 1d10+16 = 21.5 avg dmg X 4 WM crit = 86 dmg
Scythe 2d4+24 = 29 avg dmg X 5 WM crit = 145 dmg

Taking into account NS immunities and how immunities work for dmg types:
This is the crit dmg minus the max possible immunity:
Dwaraxe 86 - 50% = 43
Scythe 145 - 25% = 108.75

There ya have it. Scythe pwnz Dwaraxe dmg wise.

Would still take a towershield with Dwaraxe though. No point in being able to do 29674376 dmg but not live long enough to do it.

Celorn · Post by **Celorn** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:13 am

funny.. i found a page a while ago (on the WM how-to page)..

As far as base damage goes, scythe and D.waraxe are almost the same dmg output at each level (average damage-wise) not talking about what the max crit is, but the overall AVERAGE damage - even with wm, that's what's important.

Code: Select all

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Weapon-Size     |     |Crit |      |Dmg w |Dmg w |Dmg w |Dmg w |Dmg w |
| L-large, M-Med, |     |Range| Avg  |KC    |IC or |IC &  |KC &  |all   |
| S-small, T-Tiny | Dmg |&Mult| Dmg  |      |Keen  |Keen  |IC/K  | 3    |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Scythe-L         | 2d4 | 1| 5| 6.25 | 8.75 | 7.5  | 8.75 |10.0  |11.25 |
|Dwarven waraxe-M | 1d10| 1| 4| 6.6  | 8.8  | 7.7  | 8.8  | 9.9  |11.0  |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|

Also, this is base-damage, the special weapons in ns4 may slide this chart around a bit... and there are some other weapons that do MORE damage than these, but most less.. (whip being the lowest ;])

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:17 pm

I don't see STR DMG modifier anywhere on that chart.
Any dmg comparison of a 2handed weapon and a 1handed weapon without taking into account STR modifier is fundamentally flawed.

Other than that point, the chart looks useful.