Bigby Proposal

Cluster · Post by **Cluster** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:38 am

I suppose i shoulda put this here in the first place. I didnt get much feedback on the post i put it in, so for those who didnt see it, here's my proposal for a new balanced bigby setup.

All you need to do to bigbys is make the saves apparent and sensible to be balanced with NS4 stats. Have a fort save to negate the spell, a discipline check (none of this vague 'grapple' check crap) to avoid the knockdown effect, and a reflex save to avoid damage from those that do damage.

Bigby's Interposing Hand (Level 5)
Instead of keeping this a static -10 ab with no save, why not make it something like taunt where a check is made once/round. If the victim beats the casters check then the hand is dispelled. If they match, it goes to 0 but doesnt dispell, and any difference beyond that gives -x ab to a max of 10(or maybe some dirivative from caster levels -1/3-4 levels)

Bigby's Forceful Hand (Level 6)
No save just a straight disipline check to negate the hand. Also, the duration on the length of the knockdown would be variable. A roll of 1d2 + 1d2/10 caster levels maybe?

Bigby's Grasping Hand (Level 7)
Fort save to negate. A discipline check to avoid KD. And maybe a reflex save(possibly modified from general spell DC) to allow the hand to be evaded, dispelling it.

Bigby's Clenched Fist (Level Cool
Same as Grasping with damage after failing reflex save.

Bigby's Crushing Hand (Level 9)
Same as Grasping with damage after failing reflex save.

Some notes on the saves.
The fort save to negate lvl 7-9 spells could have some sort of special type added to them. And have items that provided a bonus to saves vs these particular spells. Belts would be a good place for this, better save for the bigby, or more hp for the igms coming behind it...

My idea for the discipline checks would be that for a comparable level caster to toon level and concentration in feats, there would be about a 50% chance of making the disc check. The victim also has the bonus of items(easy to get 17-20 here) and also has a d20 roll. I dont believe a mage should be able to KD a toon dedicated to his displine. So i thought of something like this for the DC.

xd6 + 1/caster level + 1d10/focus or +5/focus.

The xd6 would be set higher per spell level. 6/1d6, 7/2d6, 8/3d6, 9/4d6.

This doesnt make it too difficult for melees to dodge the KD attempts it gets hit with, and they can also have it dispelled with dismissal. This could even be reworked to be higher, as even the lvl 9 bigs with the d10/focus is easy to avoid. 4d6 (say a 20 is rolled), lvl 40 mage, epic focus (rolls 25) gives an 85 DC. This isnt that hard to beat, as good str toons can get 70-85 discipline and still have their d20 roll on top of it. On a bad set of rolls, say 10 + lvl 30 mage and gr focus (rolls 5), would be a 45 DC, Quite easy to beat.

As for the reflex save, make it so the reflex builds have a chance to dispell the hand. but only with some dedication to them. Lower than a 25 reflex should not do this easily, but those with 30+ should have no problem rolling it within the first 5 rounds.

At least this way their a bit more uniform, and require more dedication on the mages part to make them more usefull.

minielvis · Post by **minielvis** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:34 am

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:41 am

I do agree that without even specializing in evocation Bigby seems overpowered. My Monk with only 4 levels of Sorc can take out another toon by just reading bigby off of a scroll? It should drastically get better for those with Spell Focus Evocation and perhaps nuetered for those that don't. It would be nice to see a Discipline or Tumble roll for those that aren't ST based as even those toons with a 30+ ST still get KDed more then 50% of the time. It would make mages consider another route to take rather then Necro or Conj Focus and if they wanted to use Bigby then they would actually have to specialize in it rather then just having Bigby as another spell to use as well as Wail.

MLoki

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:59 am

Getting KD'd by bigbies 50% of the time means that you're probably only going to be down for a round or 2, if you're prepared.

Besides, where were your buddies that were supposed to be helping out?

Core · Post by **Core** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:01 pm

It's a summon with knockdown, that's all it is. IMO discipline should be what counts, also str adds to discipline skill. I think bigbys against other casters and rogues is what it is there for. Summoning a hand to knockdown a pure fighter/melee with discipline off a scroll and incapacitating him is rediculous I agree with loki on that point. Wondering if a lvl 1 wiz can read a bigby scroll and what level fighter he can incapacitate by doing so....

Hopeing for the best

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:02 pm

As far as I know I thought the devs implimented level req's for using scrolls...

I know it has been done for Arcane crafted gear.

Used to be sooo nice being able to use 10d6 fireball wands at level 1, softened the pain of birthing a new character...

Core · Post by **Core** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:14 pm

I remeber a long time ago certain people useing summon 9 scrolls as lvl 3'ish toons to level incredibly fast on giant mt. Until scroll nerfs on summons were put in. Quite a while ago though. Not sure on lvl limits of scrolls, but still 1 lvl of wiz before 20 and you got bigby scroll use. Do we want uber scrollers for bigby? Enough rant, I can live with everything as it is. Just chiming in, never liked the bigby spell set much.

kingfatzo · Post by **kingfatzo** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:31 pm

doh.... If it works dont fix it

Post by **TGPO** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:10 pm

The differance being works or works well. NWN while shipping with multiplayer support was not designed around PW's or playability on PW's. Even Bioware has admitted this and that they dont even make the attempt to try any kind of balance for PW environments.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:19 pm

i still think something is getting buggy with bigby lately, or its just me. everytime i get bigby'd by certain ppl from a certain faction it always works. always. it grapples multiple times in a round until i fall or i resist the hand and i fall anyway.....its getting sad.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:32 pm

It's probably lag... I don't think I've noticed that ever.

Cluster · Post by **Cluster** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:09 am

So is it possible to rescript bigbies into something like i layed out?

As much as i like playing mages myself, the spell needs to be balanced. Its not really a nerfing, just requires mages to actually put some effort into its use. If you do your still gonna have a very effective spell against all but the best (x/rdd) disc builds.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:15 am

It is possible. Whether that's what they want to do is another matter.

Joran · Post by **Joran** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:22 am

So is it possible to rescript bigbies into something like i layed out?

Sorry Cluster for not getting back to you about this - as a matter of fact your post has spurred on a lot of conversation in the dev forums about this very issue, and a possible change to the implementation of Bigsby's will be coming out of it shortly. Also known as, "soon" :)

Great ideas!

PeregrineV · Post by **PeregrineV** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:03 pm

I look forward to see what the changes are!

To make any spell more rare, could always add a component needed. Like door knobs for magic missile, drinking jacks for fireball, and gold nuggets for the Bigby's ____ Hand spells.

OK, could be smaller, but make it rare.