Bigby Proposal

[Knutsont]

I like Jester's ideas. This looks like a very nice balance in that str/dex characters are in no way immune to Bigby's, but it isn't an instant win for mages either. It also pushes pure class mages, for them to be highly effective.

[Throst54]

Accually druids would be a lot better if u could cheese them out archers can be awesome with hips and a hipsing drow rouge with dev crit would be awesome.

Personally I think mages should not be nerfed any more but dev crit should come back.

would spawn monk-paladin-cot builds everywhere... yay for 60+ nat saves

[minielvis]

Unbelievable! I just can not believe that we gotten to the point of nerfing more mage spells. Wow! Kudos , to all the ranters. Well done.

What's next? Nerfing dc checks too? When does it stop? I know this is technically a rant too, but I had to throw my hat in the ring.

[MLoki]

Grapple Check:
caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + CasterMod + FocusEvoc
target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + DexMod + ArcaneDefEvoc (if any)

If target fails this it goes to a hold check (same thing but with STR)

caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + CasterMod + FocusEvoc
target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + StrMod + ArcaneDefEvoc (if any)

Target needs to fail both checks to be held.

Wouldn't this work out almost as well if not better if you replaced the Defensive checks with appropriate skills?

Against caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + CasterMod + FocusEvoc

Instead of "target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + DexMod + ArcaneDefEvoc"

Use Target rolls 1d20 + Tumble + Arcane Defence: Evocation


Against caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + CasterMod + FocusEvoc

Instead of "target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + StrMod + ArcaneDefEvoc"

Use Target rolls 1d20 + Discipline + Arcane Defence: Evocation

This way most characters may already be investing in the appropriate skills and it gives them an out if they are truly working on an anti Bigby Build they have 2 types of feats to choose from to get ahead. It uses skill base instead of level base for the defensive measures and doesn't rely on a characters actual level but instead on his skills of evasion and discipline.

MLoki

[kingfatzo]

argh, i had to put my glasses on to read the red type

[Joran]

You don't get to call it nerfing when it's an "I Win" button :P

[alena]

Unbelievable! I just can not believe that we gotten to the point of nerfing more mage spells. Wow! Kudos , to all the ranters. Well done.

What's next? Nerfing dc checks too? When does it stop? I know this is technically a rant too, but I had to throw my hat in the ring.

I hope during testing someone tries it out in amazons or the planer areas. It sure is hard to get a kill in the latter. If there are two, forget it, as someone has to tank for you. Currently it is my best weapon for a tank other than the mob chasing me around while he solos one.

I ceartainly am not the best wiz builder so I might be missing something.

Sunny

[Elagneros]

I hope during testing someone tries it out in amazons or the planer areas. It sure is hard to get a kill in the latter. If there are two, forget it, as someone has to tank for you.

I think that's the idea in the planes.

[JesterOI]

Was doing more thinking and added some more to the Bigby script I had earlier: (added more ability mods to get a more accurate idea of how strong the overall build is.)

Grapple Check:
caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + INTmod + CHAmod + FocusEvoc
target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + DEXMod + CONmod + ArcaneDefEvoc (if any)

If target fails this it goes to a hold check (same thing but with STR)

caster = 1d20 + CasterLevel + INTmod + CHAmod + FocusEvoc
target = 1d20 + CharacterLevel + STRMod + CONmod + ArcaneDefEvoc (if any)

Basically made it so that the ability mods from both INT and CHA are used in the caster's roll, both used together give a better picture of the overall ability of the caster.

On the Target side of things I added its CONmod into the picture to help even things out. Again adding CONmod intot he picture give a more accurate picture of the overall power of the character.


Have been thinking of adding in Reflex save for the grapple check and Fort save for the hold check. If that were to happen, the mage would probably have their Will added to their roll. A little unorthodox using a save in the roll for a offense spell, but it helps even out vs the saves of the target (atleast in PVP). And again, it also gives a better picture of how strong a character is overall.

[MasterYoda]

You don't get to call it nerfing when it's an "I Win" button

Its only a I win button if u don't expect it. How many old timer pros to ns do u see in this thread ranting about bigsbies.
U can handle it if u expect it.

This is rediculess that random people rant about something then get there way.

Mages are fine.... Bigsbies is able to be worked around through time and effort.

I don't think people who have been here in ns for years should get screwed out of time and effort they put into characters that are build specifically to null bigsbies.

Make fighter types better.

Stop nerfing casters.

Grumble grumble ..........

[JesterOI]

Bigbies is Dismissal's biatch.

[MasterYoda]

Accually druids would be a lot better if u could cheese them out archers can be awesome with hips and a hipsing drow rouge with dev crit would be awesome.

Personally I think mages should not be nerfed any more but dev crit should come back.

would spawn monk-paladin-cot builds everywhere... yay for 60+ nat saves

Acutally it would only be dareon which would give them a much needed boost of populairity

[Joran]

Can we maybe hold off on the bitching and moaning about nerfs until something actually gets nerfed? Jeez. Tone down the histrionics for once.

We've got plans for Bigsby's that don't involve "nerfs" in the sense of keeping the spell but making it weaker - ideally we'd like to make them at least a little more differentiable (as they are now there's not a whole lot to distinguish them from one another).

I have no clue what gave Bioware the notion that the Bigsby spells, as worded in the PnP handbooks, would translate well into a setting like NWN. They basically threw out all of their true effects, made up some new spells, and slapped a pretty hand VFX and the Bigsby's name on them.

[JesterOI]

Histrionic was on my last psych test today!

Don't know about the PnP versions, but I was thinking...

Interposing hand has a pretty unique function already...
Most people don't use it, but it works 100% of the time unlike the other ones (unless Spell Resisted).
Also realise that -10ab not only makes it harder for an opponent to hit, but is also equivalent to +10discipline when it comes to KD and other combat manuevers, so mages have less to moan about KD in that respect.
Maybe make the -ab variable, make it equal to casters BAB?

Forceful Hand
The knockdown effect is cool, the daze effect is cool.
Limit the KD effect to 1 round, the daze effect to 2 or 3. Let Immune KD prevent the KD, but let the Daze effect skip past Mind-Affecting Immunity.
Increase the distance that the target is knocked back away from the caster.
Add dmg to the spell, 1d8+1/casterlvl bludgeoning.

Grasping Hand
Maybe this one could decrease movement speed of the target.
Could put a check in.
For every round of the duration the target must make this check or have their movement speed decreased for that round, skips Movement Speed Decrease Immunity?

Clenched Fist
1d8+1/casterlevel dmg / round, bludgeoning.
-5 reflex saves, no check.
target makes a check every round, if it fails: -5 ab and -5ac to target for that round.

Crushing Hand
3d8+1/casterlevel dmg / round, bludgeoning
Same effect as now, target makes a check every round, if target fails check they drop to their knees.

Cap at 1 hand per caster.

Cap the duration of the spells to 1 Turn unless the caster is pure classed, make 1round/lvl for pure class.
Also cap the dmg at +20 unless pure classed.

[MasterYoda]

Histrionic was on my last psych test today!

Don't know about the PnP versions, but I was thinking...

Interposing hand has a pretty unique function already...
Most people don't use it, but it works 100% of the time unlike the other ones (unless Spell Resisted).
Also realise that -10ab not only makes it harder for an opponent to hit, but is also equivalent to +10discipline when it comes to KD and other combat manuevers, so mages have less to moan about KD in that respect.

Forceful Hand
The knockdown effect is cool, the daze effect is cool.
Limit the KD effect to 1 round, the daze effect to 2 or 3. Let Immune KD prevent the KD, but let the Daze effect skip past Mind-Affecting Immunity.
Increase the distance that the target is knocked back away from the caster.
Add dmg to the spell, 1d8+1/casterlvl bludgeoning.

Grasping Hand
Maybe this one could decrease movement speed of the target.
Could put a check in.
For every round of the duration the target must make this check or have their movement speed decreased for that round, skips Movement Speed Decrease Immunity?

Clenched Fist
1d8+1/casterlevel dmg / round, bludgeoning.
-5 reflex saves, no check.
target makes a check every round, if it fails: -5 ab and -5ac to target for that round.

Crushing Hand
3d8+1/casterlevel dmg / round, bludgeoning
Same effect as now, target makes a check every round, if target fails check they drop to their knees.


Cap the duration of the spells to 1 Turn unless the caster is pure classed, make 1round/lvl for pure class.

wow ..... i really agree with this ....... way to go captain spam !