Bigby Proposal

[LinuxPup]

Just bumping this one up...

Again, I'm big on both melee and casters.. I have a really good melee char and an effective sorc, so I'm trying to see this as objective as possible from both sides.

It seems discipline check is a good way to go since it is KDing the opponent. How about the normal DC of a lvl 9 spell times two.. so if a mage has a DC of 40 for a lvl 9 evocation spell like bigby's, their DC vs. discipline would be 80.

I know plenty of characters who would have a tough time making that save and it would require everyone to invest heavily in discipline gear and feats in order to survive. And remember, bigby's sticks to the player, so they would have to make the save multiple times or they're doomed.

If you think the DC is too high or low, an extra 5 to 10 can be added or subtracted... Just an idea.

[P. Fricebottle]

DC=80 not much better. With epic skill focus and normal (disc), disc rings, disc helmet, disc maximized (lvl 40), and uber strength (54), Discipline will attain 87. Keep in mind thats with ALL said components above, not all of us have the convenience of uber strength (for us non-tanks), disc helm, disc feats (especially those), etc. Keep in mind it is very hard for tanks built like this to achieve even level 30. This way, the strength factor still plays it role (discipline), but bigsbies are no longer masters of fighters.

Dex-ers are still left behind in bigsby's grasp. The discipline addition is a start though, this will work with fighters. However, there seems to be multiple problems with bigbys in PWs. Monks got it going though . No need worry about mages. I don't want to make it useless against all classes though, just make reverse its "I win button" use. Keep it strong though.

Allow a reflex save to avoid the materialized hand. Make the DC=3/4 of the mage's concentration. Mages can get their concentration easily up to 60 (rank, rings, helmets, skill focus feats, and constitution spells) and 3/4 of that is 45. The mage with 60 concentrion was level 32. My same level rogue had 37 reflex saves. This way, its decently avoidable (60% miss chance I'd wager) but once caught the rogue is done for. So it will require some effort, but once caught the mage has defeated the rogue (no way for rogues to succed disc or strength saves).

Thats all I can think of :S. Perhaps a little too toned down on the bigsbies, so anyone else with opposing ideas please post them. Merge opposing ideas together and hopefully we'll come out with an agreeable system.

[Deicide]

DC 80? +87 Discipline?

Damn, I must be playing some other game. Or my mind do not understand the concept of cheese. A game should be Balanced so that a spell such a Bibgy will work around 50% on most cases. If you need two rings, a helm, one or two feats and lots and lots of points in a single ability just to counter a single spell, then something is wrong to me. Balance means that a spell should be affective at least 50% of the time, not 100%. Some characters would be more vulnerable to it, others would not. Maybe someone will cheese out a counter for that specific spell, but that same person will be very vulnerable to other spells.

I must admit that I never played a mage or pure caster in NWN, so I can't say how effective they are. But I see casters owning my Paladin hard almost all the time, even with my high (but not cheese'd) saves. I just think that it would be unfair if a caster, who has a very big number of spells, use only one or two effectivelly against almost all characters.

Just a opinion.

[Holghask]

Why not tweak bigbies to fit how it is in Pen and Paper? First the Bigby's hand has to see if it starts a grapple with the target (target's AC(DEX score) comes into play here). If it manages to start a grapple, then the hand makes a trip attempt each round on the target. The target gets to use their base attack bonus to counter this trip attempt (STR score comes into play here).

I know scripting the first part (AC) would be tricky, however making the save vs the KD to include the target's base attack bonus is easily done.

Maybe make the trip attempt of the hand also tied to the attack bonus of the caster casting it? This way a mage can invest more into uping their overall attack bonus in order to have a better bigbies?

Maybe make the scroll versions have a set KD attempt score that would make them weaker than the same Bigbies spell cast by a 40th lev mage (right now, a low level Bigbies scroll that gets past spell resistance has the same effect of KDs and Damage as a cast Bigbies from a high level mage).

So to summarize:
1. incorporate Base Attack in a save vs Bigbies for a KD (if not the full base attack to resist a KD, maybe an appropriate fraction of one's base attack?);
2. incorporate Total Attack Bonus (different than Base Attack) of caster for the hand's KD attempt;
3. make Bigbies scrolls use a lower number instead of caster's Total Attack Bonus for the same calculation.

Pitfalls:
1. Toons with high Base Attack score may be immune to Bigbies;
2. Forces a mage to select spells/feats/items that increase their total attack bonus if they want an awesome bigbies.

[JesterOI]

Here's the Bioware version for Crushing Hand, the level 9 spell.
It skips all paralyze immune.


int nCasterModifier = GetCasterAbilityModifier(OBJECT_SELF);
int nCasterRoll = d20(1)
+ nCasterModifier
+ GetCasterLevel(OBJECT_SELF) + 12 + -1;
int nTargetRoll = GetAC(oTarget);

// * grapple HIT succesful,
if (nCasterRoll >= nTargetRoll)
{
// * now must make a GRAPPLE check
// * hold target for duration of spell

nCasterRoll = d20(1) + nCasterModifier
+ GetCasterLevel(OBJECT_SELF) + 12 + 4;

nTargetRoll = d20(1)
+ GetBaseAttackBonus(oTarget)
+ GetSizeModifier(oTarget)
+ GetAbilityModifier(ABILITY_STRENGTH, oTarget);

if (nCasterRoll >= nTargetRoll)
{
effect eKnockdown = EffectParalyze();

[Lokey]

Holghask: I sort of did that, just that you have to compensate for the hands not being real creatures (have most of the casters stats, hp, saves) and that prone in NWN means you are helpless which isn't so in DnD.

Jester: keep reading, there's a part where if they're immune to KD/paralyze it changes to cut scene immobilize which is...well see my signature (though KD/paralyze is bad enough).

[JesterOI]

I didn't say it did it properly or well