I like a lot about the new Bigby's... not nearly as overpowered... Except for con based gnome mages... which get DCs of 103+.. which is nearly impossible for any char to resist period... Even a lvl 40 str based char with epic skill focus discipline and full discipline gear can't make that kind of save..
Can the the DC be based on maybe 2/3 of the caster's concentration? Or aybe 3/4... some sort of reduction to keep it from being a completely unstoppable spell.
Thanks
New Bigby's
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Ryddwillow
- Spamalot
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 9:31 pm
Plz quit whining about how this works or that doesnt work---get real! I have seen many nerfs and ppl keep whining how this build beats mine---yah! I have seen lvl 9 players use darkness to kill artic wolves and now they are screaming no fair---get real! If u dont know how to beat a mage, melee,or rogue search and u will find the answer and quit whining!
Every build has a flaw and find it. Search, or ask some one. trust me
enough said!
Every build has a flaw and find it. Search, or ask some one. trust me
enough said!
I believe its mostly really great too... don't call this whining just because you don't like criticism 
... but a name a build that can take on a DC 100+ spell... all fighter types are hopeless... they can't make the save... SR gets bypassed so that leaves clerics, monks, and druids in the water...
Spell mantle is the only way I can think of bypassing it since nobody can make the saving throw..and thats only 2 classes (sorc and wiz) and I mean pretty much nobody. The recent Bigby improvements are definitely a step in the right direction... they just need a few adjustments that's all... as its too easy to make a "I win" char with an unbeatable spell.
FYI, I've never been killed by this spell so its not a personal vendetta or anything like that. And willow's "every build has a flaw" analogy is silly... as that kind of reasoning defends stuff like dev. crit which few will accept as a reasonable feat... why? Because of crazy high DCs like Bigby's
... but a name a build that can take on a DC 100+ spell... all fighter types are hopeless... they can't make the save... SR gets bypassed so that leaves clerics, monks, and druids in the water...Spell mantle is the only way I can think of bypassing it since nobody can make the saving throw..and thats only 2 classes (sorc and wiz) and I mean pretty much nobody. The recent Bigby improvements are definitely a step in the right direction... they just need a few adjustments that's all... as its too easy to make a "I win" char with an unbeatable spell.
FYI, I've never been killed by this spell so its not a personal vendetta or anything like that. And willow's "every build has a flaw" analogy is silly... as that kind of reasoning defends stuff like dev. crit which few will accept as a reasonable feat... why? Because of crazy high DCs like Bigby's
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Nemesis Revised
- Newbie Helper
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:34 am
I see the point - but I have seen many builds in game that can beat a high DC like that. Browsing around there are a lot of toons with 80-90 discipline at level 32 or so. By the time they get to level 40, and if they use the right gear (2x Epic Ring of Defense, etc) then a DC 100 won't be much of a problem to hit.
The thing is, if a caster has a crazy high concentration like that, it's most likely the result of a massive amount of feat investments - which takes away epic spells, great int/cha, and other important epic feats that improve the character in various ways. So, they do give up a lot to get that kind of DC, and the missing elements are what you should exploit when faced with someone like that.
Besides, the Disc/Conc opposed check are just for the 8 and 9 level bigby's - the others have tumble/spellcraft, etc. Plus those are just for the stun/knockdown - the real way to get around Bigby's now is simple - up your AC! If the hand can't hit you (which is all AC based), then you never have to worry about rolling a check!
The thing is, if a caster has a crazy high concentration like that, it's most likely the result of a massive amount of feat investments - which takes away epic spells, great int/cha, and other important epic feats that improve the character in various ways. So, they do give up a lot to get that kind of DC, and the missing elements are what you should exploit when faced with someone like that.
Besides, the Disc/Conc opposed check are just for the 8 and 9 level bigby's - the others have tumble/spellcraft, etc. Plus those are just for the stun/knockdown - the real way to get around Bigby's now is simple - up your AC! If the hand can't hit you (which is all AC based), then you never have to worry about rolling a check!
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Death Dealer1
- PKer
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:59 pm
- Location: the land of aaahhhhh's, where dorothy lives ;)
hehe reminds me of tonite DD1 
.....anyway....willow speaks the truth as well as others...it was debated, looked over and reworked logically now stop whining !
-- personally i would say lock this...and yell PWND while doing so.
.....anyway....willow speaks the truth as well as others...it was debated, looked over and reworked logically now stop whining !
-- personally i would say lock this...and yell PWND while doing so.
Fatzo
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
http://thelegendarybrethren.forumsplace.com/
http://brethren.mygameguild.com/main.asp
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
http://thelegendarybrethren.forumsplace.com/
http://brethren.mygameguild.com/main.asp
it doesnt sound like a whine to me,more like feedback for the devs.my str based character even at lvl 40 with discipline feats and gear will almost never makea 100 plus dc save.maybe keep it the same but the lvl 9 bigby stun seems a bit long,i've been kept there for a very long time even tho i have higher strength then most ppl and maxed out discipline,id hate to be a dexer who gets hit by it or some average joe with low or no discipline at all if a high str based maxed out discipline character gets hit easy enuff and stunned for enuff rounds to lose almost 700 health.
The only other thing i found wierd was bigby's bull rush,another one that easily takes out a high strength based character with maxed discipline,and it can be spammed to keep you down for a very long time.
The only other thing i found wierd was bigby's bull rush,another one that easily takes out a high strength based character with maxed discipline,and it can be spammed to keep you down for a very long time.
No, I know it's not a whine - we appreciate constructive feedback. One of the things we do is to try and get a general feel for how the player population responds to changes like this, and tweak them accordingly.
For now, I'd say keep playing and trying different things out - if more people come through with the same complaints about the DCs, we'll look at modifying them a little bit as well. I personally have been on the server observing a lot in the past few days to gauge the effectiveness of the changes, and from what I can tell the changes are still an improvement over what the spells were like before.
For now, I'd say keep playing and trying different things out - if more people come through with the same complaints about the DCs, we'll look at modifying them a little bit as well. I personally have been on the server observing a lot in the past few days to gauge the effectiveness of the changes, and from what I can tell the changes are still an improvement over what the spells were like before.
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Death Dealer1
- PKer
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:59 pm
- Location: the land of aaahhhhh's, where dorothy lives ;)
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Nemesis Revised
- Newbie Helper
- Posts: 358
- Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 8:34 am
falazure is right, if a player's aim is to build a character that rears alot for tanking such as heavy fighter or heavy barbarian builds, they dont get that much AC as compared to builds that have sme cleric/rogue/monk/bard etc.
and thing is, even if fighters and barbs have extremely high discipline, they'd still fail the save beacuse they tend to have lower saves in the first place, the caster can overcome the target's discipline (since the caster can invest more into skills such as concentration),etc.
personally speaking, builds that have heavy fighter or barb (aside from the other classes) used to be able to fend of bigbies on them. now they'll have a harder time (while other classes can still survive more such as bard [higher ac]).
and thing is, even if fighters and barbs have extremely high discipline, they'd still fail the save beacuse they tend to have lower saves in the first place, the caster can overcome the target's discipline (since the caster can invest more into skills such as concentration),etc.
personally speaking, builds that have heavy fighter or barb (aside from the other classes) used to be able to fend of bigbies on them. now they'll have a harder time (while other classes can still survive more such as bard [higher ac]).
1%useful posts, 99% spaM
The maximum attack roll for a bigby’s (crushing hand) is as follows:
10 – str mod
39 – spell dc (calculated below)
20 – 1d20
6 – Epic Evocation Focus
= 75
Therefore, if you have an AC greater than 75, you should be immune to Level 6, 8 and 9 Bigby’s. DD1, what AC did you have when you were hit with the Bigby? Which one was it?
Spell DC calc:
9 (spell level) + 10 (inherent) + 20 (int/char mod max per below)
Mod Max:
18 starting, 10 from greater int/char, 10 from applied stats, 7 from items, 5 from fox’s/eagle’s = 50, i.e. 20 mod
10 – str mod
39 – spell dc (calculated below)
20 – 1d20
6 – Epic Evocation Focus
= 75
Therefore, if you have an AC greater than 75, you should be immune to Level 6, 8 and 9 Bigby’s. DD1, what AC did you have when you were hit with the Bigby? Which one was it?
Spell DC calc:
9 (spell level) + 10 (inherent) + 20 (int/char mod max per below)
Mod Max:
18 starting, 10 from greater int/char, 10 from applied stats, 7 from items, 5 from fox’s/eagle’s = 50, i.e. 20 mod