Cleric concerns

[Cthulhu Drega]

in another post i suggested adding the elemntal domains to MA this got me thinking about other factions in particular NC

they have access to all domains including evil death and distruction this needs attention as their alingment dictates their actions and beliefs then i say they should not get these domains as they are aginst their ethics.

i would further suggest that clerics from NC not be allowed to use spells like summon undead ect as these too are not in the spirit of what they stand for.

someone in the other thread posted that monks are the natural enemy of the PM but this is far from true Paladins are the true enemy of a PM not monks. but that is a matter for that thread

back to the subject at hand if domains are to fit the faction then NC needs to be trimmed of these undead using and death domain clerics as the undead is MA's forte` and hardly appropreate for the goodly NC.

this is a perfectly fair and appropreate suggestsion to continue to allow this is showing bias to certian factions and quite unfair to the factions that have limited clerics.

to flip the coin SL could use some domain pruning too as they can pick any aswell and Good domain especaly is not in their nature animal and plant also would not fit with the theme they have.

im shure the naysayers will post ther redoric but if you are going to limit one factions domains then all should be done in the same way im shure TC players will agree with me on this as they are the only other domain limited faction

as allwase thanks for your time
Cthulhu Drega

[Yonwe]

"Destruction" as a domain just means destruction as a noun derived from "destroy"; anything can be destroyed, including evil. For example, NC allows LN as an alignment, and as an example, Kossuth is a LN god who has Destruction as a domain.

Evil's harder to explain away via this method, but again, with LN being a permitted alignment, and LN cleric can worship a LE god and take Evil as a domain. In fact, LN by definition requires devoting an equal amount of effort to both good and evil, or at least a toleration of evil while pursuing good ends... as long as LN is in the Coalition, there is required to be a certain amount of evil within the faction, or neutrality would by itself cease to be present.

Of course, the simpler explanation is the NC is simply a more divinely-focused faction than most others, and therefore wouldn't be likely to turn away anyone who isn't themselves evil as long as they're willing to work with good and honors the gods.

And there you go!

[P. Fricebottle]

someone in the other thread posted that monks are the natural enemy of the PM but this is far from true Paladins are the true enemy of a PM not monks. but that is a matter for that thread

My bad, I guess I was thinking too along the lines of Grimgnaw. But listen to my point of view.

Monks support order, wether it is one of evil or good. They abide by the law, wether it is a twisted one based on destruction or a one for good. As all monks support order, of course they are against those that do not. This includes the Natural Order of Life, which the Palemaster is the ulitmate defilement of. Not only do they break the laws of life by cheating death, but they mock it with their un-natural power.

And I don't like your thinking. Nerf another faction, because yours didn't get what you wanted. I guess I'm just a nay-sayer. Nay.

[Cthulhu Drega]

this has quite little to do with i didnt get my way so bla bla bla this has to do with fairness. if i was totaly self motivated why ask for the nerfing of my allied faction SL? so dont come to me with that

" Evil's harder to explain away via this method, but again, with LN being a permitted alignment, and LN cleric can worship a LE god and take Evil as a domain." what utter nonsense

the NC is a collection of PALADINS the most good and lawful beings in exsistance a LN worshiping a evil god would be cast out as a heratic at the very nicest or killed outright. to say that this excuses the allowance of the evil domain is total nonsense. the use of that domain and undead as summons is a slap in the face of all the NC gods. even Tyr being a LN god would not stand for the defiling of the dead, even if the purpose is for good because the LAWs of life are once dead you move on and the body returns to the earth, to use undead as summons violates this law.

everyone screams for fairness and balance yet when the focus is on your faction and limiting it you scream foul. you cant have it both ways folks.

NC being realy focused on clerics i can agree that domains like distruction can be allowed as it does allow turning uf UN-NATURAL constructs but as far as evil and death i think not these are by their nature EVIL and as sutch not welcome in a majority good socioty.

you say that NC needs thses domains in order to not be weakend as if they are weak. NC has the potental to be one of the strongest factions a smiting pally cot has the most damage output potential of any melee based toon. < note the period there.

if your going to limit any faction by their gods and ethos then all must be limited not just a select fiew ( 2 to be percise MA and TC ) you limit MA because of their prc and not thir ethos its not my fault you made it so nasty. you limit TC because their nature loving theme demands that you do yet NC remains un effected by their ethos? with more than one undead summon focused cleric in their midst. SL being primarly under Loths dominion bars rangers and druids as they are most commonly associated with the god elvin gods yet they can have animal and plant domains? air is also questionable as that is for the surface dwellers and in PNP call lightning ( the only reason to take air domain) cant be used underground or indoors so why would clerics of loth have this?

you take the Paladin from AO because paladins wouldent support the slavery there ( real reason being pally rdd is nasty and some "balancing" needed to be done )

you have plans to balance out everything with jobs and other tweaks i look forward to this but in your persuit of balance you do need to do this with domains aswell. otherwise all your talk of balance is a smokescreen to cover up the favoratisim of certian factions over others. if you want balance then the rules of ethos guiding the limitations of a faction need to be followed for ALL factions and not a select fiew.


taken directly from your faction descriptions:

The Northern Coalition
Capital: Daeron
Factional Alliances: The Circle
Races: All
Alignments: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good
Classes: Cleric, Paladin, Monk, Fighter, Bard, Ranger
Unique Prestige Class: Champion of Torm
Bind Point Color: Gold
Deities: Tyr, Helm, Ilmatar, St. Cuthbert, Torm

"NC allows LN as an alignment, and as an example, Kossuth is a LN god who has Destruction as a domain. "

funny i dont see kossuth in the list of worshiped deities. if your gonna use a god as an example for why NC can have a domain shouldent it atleast be a NC deity?

[MasterYoda]

oh man come pwn this guy yonwe.

*me twiddles thumbs and gets ready for the glorious response from yonwe*

[CrazyJ]

Tentacle-face does make sense... I agree.

[Cthulhu Drega]

here are some portfolios of NC's gods for your viewing

Torm: The True, the True Deity, the Loyal Fury
(Lesser Deity)
Symbol: Right-hand gauntlet held upright with palm forward
Home Plane: House of the Triad
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Duty, loyalty, obedience, paladins
Worshipers: Paladins, heroes, good fighters and warriors, guardians, knights, loyal courtiers
Cleric Alignments: LG, LN, NG
Domains: Good, Healing, Law, Protection, Strength
Favored Weapon: "Duty's Bond" (greatsword)

Torm (torm) the True, patron of paladins and unswerving enemy of corruption and evil, serves the people of Faerun by exemplifying the chivalric ideal. An ascended hero who lived his mortal life in service to a just sovereign, Torm eschews the pretense of his fellow deities, instead adopting a humble position that he exists to serve the common good and the rule of law as established by honorable mortal rulers. Though a true deity with awesome power at his disposal, the Loyal Fury is all too familiar with the failings of mortal men, having fallen victim to hubris, gullibility and ignorance when confined to a mortal shell during the Time of Troubles. During that seminal event, Torm allowed himself to be controlled by his own corrupt, oppressive clerics for a short time, an occurrence that gave him perspective on his own flaws and enhanced his sense of humility. Stern, righteous, and unyielding in the face of evil, Torm's spirit lifts when dealing with his friends, the weak, the defenseless, and the young.



Tyr: The Even-Handed, the Maimed God, the Just God
(Greater Deity)
Symbol: Balanced scales resting on a warhammer
Home Plane: House of the Triad
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Justice
Worshipers: Paladins, judges, magistrates, lawyers, police, the oppressed
Cleric Alignments: LG, LN, NG
Domains: Good, Knowledge, Law, Retribution, War
Favored Weapon: "Justicar" (longsword)

Tyr and his clerics as stern arbiters of justice, often missing the paternal philosophical nuances of Tyrran doctrine for its more obvious black-and-white teachings on the nature of morality. They tend to view Tyr as something of a divine constant-- they know that Tyr expects fairness, good judgment, and kindness toward the innocent from his followers, and hence afford Tyr's clerics a great deal of trust.

Helm: The Watcher, the Vigilant One
(Intermediate Deity)

Symbol: Staring eye with blue pupil on a upright war gauntlet
Home Plane: House of the Triad
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Portfolio: Guardians, protectors, protection
Worshipers: Explorers, fighters, guards, mercenaries, paladins
Cleric Alignments: LE, LG, LN
Domains: Law, Planning, Protection, Strength
Favored Weapon: "Ever Watchful" ([censored] sword)

DOGMA: Never betray your trust. Be vigilant. Stand, wait, and watch carefully. Be fair and diligent in the conduct of your orders. Protect the weak, poor, injured, and young, and do not sacrifice them for others or yourself. Anticipate attacks and be ready. Know your foes. Care for your weapons so they may perform their duties when called upon. Careful planning always defeats rushed actions in the end. Always obey orders, providing those orders follow the dictates of Helm. Demonstrate excellence and purity of loyalty in your role as a guardian and protector

Ilmater: The Crying God, The Broken God
(Intermediate Deity)

Symbol: Pair of white hands bound at the wrist with a red cord
Home Plane: House of the Triad
Alignment: Lawful Good
Portfolio: Endurance, suffering, martyrdom, perseverance
Worshipers: The lame, the oppressed, the poor, monks, paladins, serfs, slaves
Cleric Alignments: LG, LN, NG
Domains: Good, Healing, Law, Strength, Suffering
Favored Weapon: An open hand (unarmed strike)

DOGMA: Help all who hurt, no matter who they are. The truly holy take on the suffering of others. If you suffer in his name, Ilmater is there to support you. Stick to your cause if it is right, whatever the pain or peril. There is no shame in a meaningful death. Stand up to all tyrants, and allow no injustice to go unchallenged. Emphasize the spiritual nature of life over the existence of the material body.

Greyhawk Deity
Saint Cuthbert
Title(s) St Cuthbert of the Cudgel
Homeplane Peacable Kingdoms of Arcadia
Power Level Intermediate
Alignment Lawful Neutral (Lawful Good)
Portfolio Common Sense, Wisdom, Zeal, Honesty, Truth, Discipline
Domains Destruction, Good, Law, Protection, Strength there is distruction so that will be omited from my list

i couldent find a good description of his dogma online however Vecna is one of his chief enemys

also i would point out this from NCs own desription

Settling throughout the northernmost regions of the realm, across the Dorian Sea, the Northern Coalition is a faction of law and order. Wary of arcane magic, this mostly human group keeps to themselves for the most part, content to maintain order in the small area they have created for themselves. The majestic capital city of Daeron is a haven for all lawful races and classes from across the realm. Relatively isolated, the Coalition's biggest adversaries are the hordes of Undead that plague the region, as well as the nearby Ancient Ones faction, whose frequent raids on their outlying villages are a continual source of bitterness and anger. Despite their disdain for practitioners of arcane magic, the Coalition welcomes and even relies on the aid and support of powerful Bards, whose arcane roots and roguish skills are considered either gifts from the Gods or loveable quirks, depending on who you ask.

[Cthulhu Drega]

oh man come pwn this guy yonwe.

*me twiddles thumbs and gets ready for the glorious response from yonwe*

i do believe someone is a bit bitter still from getting killed earlier

and why would yonwe "pwn" me for stating my opinions? or is this the new world where opinions are aginst the law? if you have nothing USEFUL to add to this DISCUSSION then please go about your buiseness

[mgrjebbo]

you know cthulhu i could do the same thing for pale masters if you wish. it wouldnt be hard. not gunna change.

although i do like the way you explain yourself, you do it well and you try to make good points. however that doesnt alot to much around here as the majority of people dont agree with you or dont care to even read what you say, all they see is change, and assume it must be crying about something.

[Yonwe]

I would have let my previous statements stand, but since Havok asked so nicely...

Specifying a Deity

The deities are listed here under the faction for which they are valid, to help you choose the correct deity for your character. Those listed as none are open to any faction that allows that particular alignment.

There may be additional requirements for a deity based on the deity's alignment or domain, as well. For example, Tempus requires the player to be Chaotic Neutral, and a member of the Ancient Ones faction. Clerics of this deity must also choose from the domains associated with that deity. Example being, Tempus requires Chaos - Protection - Strength - War. These are the only domains that character can choose from.

As you can see from here, the list of deities you quote under the Northern Coalition heading are simply the ones which require you to be a member of NC to worship effectively; a worshipper of Tyr in LA is not a "faithful member" of the church of Tyr in the eyes of that god. Kossuth, not being an assigned deity to any faction, is open to any faction and any follower whose alignment is compatable with his own, and ergo a potential deity for NC. Think of it this way: Israel is a Jewish state, and as such the vast majority of its faithful are Jews. However, there are Muslims, Christians, Jainist, and probably some treehugging hippies from Melencia who plant flowers around the Wailing Wall when no one's looking...

Alignment: Like the pantheon of gods they serve, a cleric may be of any alignment. Because people more readily worship good deities than neutral or evil ones, most clerics encountered during the course of traveling the world tend to be good; likewise, governments tend not to permit churches of evil deities to function openly due to the destructive influence they can have on normal society. Common clerics also tend toward law instead of chaos, since lawful religions tend to be more structured and better able to recruit and train clerics than chaotic ones, which tend to operate as individuals rather than organizations. Typically, around 80% of clerics are the same alignment as their deities, though roughly 10% respectively are one step away from their deities in alignment. For example, most clerics of Heironeous, the god of valour (who is lawful good), are lawful good, but a minority are lawful neutral or neutral good. Likewise, Gruumsh, the god of the orcs, is chaotic evil, and some of his clerics may be chaotic neutral or neutral evil. A cleric cannot be true neutral unless his deity is true neutral; being a cleric requires a certain amount of zealotry incompatible with the indifference of true neutrality, unless his deity actively works to maintain the balance of philosophy that true neutral sometimes represents.

Domains: While the clerics of a particular faith are united in their reverence for their deity, each cleric emphasizes particular interests of their church and their deity's teachings. After selecting your deity, choose two of that deity's domains in which your cleric will focus, gaining extra spells related to that domain, as well as that domain's specific power. If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, but rather a spiritual inclination, select two domains associated with that philosophy; however, you may not select two domains incompatible with each other (for example, a lawful neutral cleric devoted to the concept of lawfulness cannot select both Good and Evil as domains, even though each one is not prohibited by being neutral). If you are a neutral cleric who chooses to Turn Undead rather than Rebuke, (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) you may not select Evil as a domain; likewise, if you are a neutral cleric who chooses to Rebuke Undead rather than Turn (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity), you may not select Good as a domain. If you are a cleric of a deity associate with a race, such as Corellon or Yondalla, you may not select that deity's respective racial domains unless you are a member of that race.

As you can see from these two selections, a cleric is free to choose any alignment compatible with their deity, and also following the factional alignment restrictions of NS4, it's possible that a LN cleric of Kossuth (or even something worse like Hextor) could still join the Coalition, although if they were a real person forced to live in the city, they'd probably not like it and view it as something they have to do rather than want. As a very conservative, gun owning, cowboy-hat wearing classics language graduate student living in the People's Socialist Republic of Boulder, Colorado, I can tell you, it's unpleasant, but can be done

Not to mention that a cleric who has a domain such as Evil in a basically "good" organization has real-world application as well: as you can see from above, domains represent a specific cleric's specialization in the lore and teachings of their church. In the catholic church, there are priests who specialize in Satanism and witchcraft, priests who've spent their entire life studying the dark arts and theoretically know how to apply them, but use them to the benefit of their fight against evil... hell, this probably sounds an awful bit like DnD, eh? Wonder where they got the idea

[MasterYoda]

I think its funny when people sit here and try to pull in game things into the forums.

Didnt munchkin own u later too

and didnt u cry

anyways back on point.

Yonwe usually has a awesome rebuddle to y anything is how it is in any dnd world.

His knowledge in y things r done and what needs to happen to correct them is astonishing.

Your jibberish was just asking for someone to stuff your mouth full of a sock.

And i was waiting for yonwe to do so

[P. Fricebottle]

if i was totaly self motivated why ask for the nerfing of my allied faction SL? so dont come to me with that

Because you were willing to sell out your allies for something you wanted, betrayal is quite common in D&D scenarios.

" Evil's harder to explain away via this method, but again, with LN being a permitted alignment, and LN cleric can worship a LE god and take Evil as a domain." what utter nonsense

I think its utter nonsense you left what else Yonwe said. Let me add it back in.

In fact, Lawful Neutral by definition requires devoting an equal amount of effor to both good and evil, or at least a toleration of evil while pursuing good ends... as long as LN is in the Coalition, there is required to be a certaun amount of evil within the faction, or neutrality would by itself cease to be present

Lawful Neutral includes Law and Neutrality, it makes up 1/3 of the NC Alignments. Note it does not include good. Neutrality is a balance of good and evil, if you forgot.

the NC is a collection of PALADINS the most good and lawful beings in exsistance a LN worshiping a evil god would be cast out as a heratic at the very nicest or killed outright. to say that this excuses the allowance of the evil domain is total nonsense. the use of that domain and undead as summons is a slap in the face of all the NC gods. even Tyr being a LN god would not stand for the defiling of the dead, even if the purpose is for good because the LAWs of life are once dead you move on and the body returns to the earth, to use undead as summons violates this law.

This is the one point I agree with to an extent. We could just throw out SL's Good Domain and NC's Evil Domain, that would make a lot of sense. However, NS4 is already complex enough with factions, alliances, relics, pvp, etc. They've had to leave the alignment factor out, so I doubt that woudld happen.

everyone screams for fairness and balance yet when the focus is on your faction and limiting it you scream foul. you cant have it both ways folks.

Isn't that what you're doing when Fatzo nominated Pale Masters for the chopping block (in no way I support that however)?

NC being realy focused on clerics i can agree that domains like distruction can be allowed as it does allow turning uf UN-NATURAL constructs but as far as evil and death i think not these are by their nature EVIL and as sutch not welcome in a majority good socioty.

Again I think we'll have to leave Alignment out of NS4's picture for the most part. Besides, if I do recall NC is a faction based on Law. Remember that? Not Good, but Law. They allow Lawful Neutral (The Judge) but not the Chaotic Good (Robin Hood-type fellow). So its not all Good. Already pointed this out.

you say that NC needs thses domains in order to not be weakend as if they are weak. NC has the potental to be one of the strongest factions a smiting pally cot has the most damage output potential of any melee based toon. < note the period there.

Where? I don't remember anyone saying NC needed these domains in order to not be further weakened. Please point to me where this has been stated in this thread.

if your going to limit any faction by their gods and ethos then all must be limited not just a select fiew ( 2 to be percise MA and TC ) you limit MA because of their prc and not thir ethos its not my fault you made it so nasty. you limit TC because their nature loving theme demands that you do yet NC remains un effected by their ethos? with more than one undead summon focused cleric in their midst. SL being primarly under Loths dominion bars rangers and druids as they are most commonly associated with the god elvin gods yet they can have animal and plant domains? air is also questionable as that is for the surface dwellers and in PNP call lightning ( the only reason to take air domain) cant be used underground or indoors so why would clerics of loth have this?

MA and TC are arch-rivals. Also note that SL was not limited, your ally. Its balanced, or would you rather go back to the infamous "I Win Button" and "One-hit Crit?" You note that SL is restricted from Druids and Rangers, TC of a lot of things as well, plus MA. Did you care to leave out the fact that NC does not have Mages. Neither does The Circle. You know what, I bet the devs are so sorry that they only gave you guys the most powerful PrC on the server. I also bet they're so sorry they only gave your PM uber summons, and so sorry that they gave your faction jobs before TC, SL, and AO. I mean, they should be ashamed.

you take the Paladin from AO because paladins wouldent support the slavery there ( real reason being pally rdd is nasty and some "balancing" needed to be done )

It had to be something gone, AO was like LA but had a PrC and ally.

you have plans to balance out everything with jobs and other tweaks i look forward to this but in your persuit of balance you do need to do this with domains aswell. otherwise all your talk of balance is a smokescreen to cover up the favoratisim of certian factions over others. if you want balance then the rules of ethos guiding the limitations of a faction need to be followed for ALL factions and not a select fiew.

In fact, this brings something to mind. Who the heck chooses the good and evil domains? I mean really, most choose Trickery, Travel, Healing, Strength, the list goes on. But is it really that important? You know what, I'm so certain they favor NC and TC the most. I mean, they favor them SO much that they're strongest in the entire realm! I mean really, they get everything except mages!

taken directly from your faction descriptions:

The Northern Coalition
Capital: Daeron
Factional Alliances: The Circle
Races: All
Alignments: Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, or Neutral Good
Classes: Cleric, Paladin, Monk, Fighter, Bard, Ranger
Unique Prestige Class: Champion of Torm
Bind Point Color: Gold
Deities: Tyr, Helm, Ilmatar, St. Cuthbert, Torm

"NC allows LN as an alignment, and as an example, Kossuth is a LN god who has Destruction as a domain. "

funny i dont see kossuth in the list of worshiped deities. if your gonna use a god as an example for why NC can have a domain shouldent it atleast be a NC deity?

First of all, we don't have that many DMs/Devs available to play a second deity for that faction. Oh guess what? Ilmater is the deity of pain and suffering, you remember the preists that cut themselves? Yeah, thats the ones. He only happens to be a deity of NC, thats all.

[mgrjebbo]

Oi......hears the lock closing

[MasterYoda]

In the words of yonwe !

P\/\/ ND !

[Cthulhu Drega]

*ignoring the comments of the mentaly challanged*


i have absolutly no problems with the way thigs are set up now but, telling everyone you want to "balance" the factions and yet impose rules for some and ignoring thoes rules for others is NOT balance.

if you want NC to have all domains fine huray for NC but dont call it balance for it is not. it is however your server and your world not mine i am just meerly trying to aid you in your "quest for balance"

I like MOST people who play here am just trying to help make it a fun and vibrant world. i try not to let personal goals or ambitions cloud my judgment as i would hope the staff does too, unlike some who see everything as a chance to try and insult degrade or otherwise be callous to others ( yes i am talking to you name ommited since we all know who he is )

so in closing feel free to lock this if someone cant controll his urges to post redoric and non topic things in it. but i would hope this discussion can go further without sutch childish comments