More arrows!

[Ting]

Fighters can use several different types of weapons in order to break through the damage resistance of their targets. Mages can use several different spells in order to find an element their target is vulnerable to. Unfortunately, so far as I have seen archers are restricted to piercing damage only.

Even in a P&P game where damage resistance is rare, an archer usually picks up some rock-biter arrows so they can damage a golem, etc. I think it would be worthwhile to add new arrows for each of the damage types, and price them alongside their counterparts.

What does everyone else think?

[sep caldessian]

use a sling?

[AndrewCarr]

umm.. ok, so i can do 1d4 dmg, have crap crits, have no weapon prof of any sort, and promptly die. It'd be better to use a mace. But for some classes, like AA, it's not an effective option.

[LoZen]

Firstly, let me say that I am not opposed to arrows that do different damage types.

However, creatures that are resistant to piercing damage are simply one of the archer's weaknesses. Rogues can't sneak attack undead, mages can't hurt creatures with spell resistance, etc. That's just the way it goes.

Assuming that you're an AA you should have several options:
1) At least a limited use of spells/scrolls/wands
2) Imbue arrow - fireballs aren't piercing weapons
3) If you know you're going to be fighting something you can't hurt too much, bring friends! Once your buddies take down that golem you'll be back in business.

[sep caldessian]

umm.. ok, so i can do 1d4 dmg, have crap crits, have no weapon prof of any sort, and promptly die. It'd be better to use a mace. But for some classes, like AA, it's not an effective option.

well, we cant compensate for every class' weaknesses. thats just simply absurd. everyone cant have an optimal character for all occaisions. if an AA meets somethign with pierce resist, its time to run or let the tank after it.

[AndrewCarr]

But the problem is a lot of classes don't need to specialize in one dmg type. AA does, they get fire arrow balls, and pierce dmg, and fire arrows only after a lot of leveling. mages in ns4 get various types of elemental dmg, all of which require different resists, so they can do dmg to most things. And then there are the death spells, horrid wilting, and incapacitating spells like sleep and cloud dazes.

Fighters do a little worse than mages, but better than archers, because they get enough feats to specialize somewhat effectively in a second weapon type. Or they can take scythe which is pierceing and slashing dmg.

[sep caldessian]

But the problem is a lot of classes don't need to specialize in one dmg type. AA does, they get fire arrow balls, and pierce dmg, and fire arrows only after a lot of leveling. mages in ns4 get various types of elemental dmg, all of which require different resists, so they can do dmg to most things. And then there are the death spells, horrid wilting, and incapacitating spells like sleep and cloud dazes.

Fighters do a little worse than mages, but better than archers, because they get enough feats to specialize somewhat effectively in a second weapon type. Or they can take scythe which is pierceing and slashing dmg.

well, im afraid youre just going to need an alternate strategy when your one-trick-pony cant do his trick as well. thats the trade off you make with the AA class.

[AndrewCarr]

I'm not using an AA. And how's an archer character a one trick pony? It relies on arrows. Just like fighters rely on melee weapons mostly, and mages on spells. If it's a one trick pony because it uses arrow then maybe i should shoot myself to get out of this crazy world.



[Edit:] typo

[sep caldessian]

I'm not using an AA. And how's an archer character a one trick pony? It relies on arrows. Just like fighters rely on melee weapons mostly, and mages on spells. If it's a one trick pony because it uses arrow then maybe i should shoot myself to get out of this crazy world.



[Edit:] typo

your entire argument is based around the AA, so i made my reply based there too.

the global point is that ALL classes have strengths and weaknesses. you need more than the standard tactics if you expect to win more battles than the next guy.

[AndrewCarr]

I expect all classes to have strengths and weaknesses. But if something has 20 pierce resist or 25% piercing resist then the entire archer char is pwned because then it can't do damage effectively, and if it's lucky, is an AA with a couple fireball arrows.

And if it relied on one thing to make it uber heinous, like timestop +6 horrid wiltings or dev crit then i could consider a one trick pony. But as it is, the char relies on a bow and maybe maybe maybe, wizard or bard buffs if the person decided to waste points on cha or has extra int points. As it is, the character relies on a weapon, specializes in the weapon, and then becomes an effective character. Not a broken character that can be in turn owned by another broken character, but a character that generaly fits well into the "balance" of things. So see, what i have a problem with, is hurting archer classes for specializing in bows to become a decent char, while other classes can work around various resists and immunities.

[sep caldessian]

I expect all classes to have strengths and weaknesses. But if something has 20 pierce resist or 25% piercing resist then the entire archer char is pwned because then it can't do damage effectively, and if it's lucky, is an AA with a couple fireball arrows.

is what? speak english please.

and as ive stated before, youre gonna need a back-up tactic regardless of what class you are.

And if it relied on one thing to make it uber heinous, like timestop +6 horrid wiltings or dev crit then i could consider a one trick pony. But as it is, the char relies on a bow and maybe maybe maybe, wizard or bard buffs if the person decided to waste points on cha or has extra int points. As it is, the character relies on a weapon, specializes in the weapon, and then becomes an effective character. Not a broken character that can be in turn owned by another broken character, but a character that generaly fits well into the "balance" of things. So see, what i have a problem with, is hurting archer classes for specializing in bows to become a decent char, while other classes can work around various resists and immunities.

are you not grasping the concept of having a back up tactic in the event that what you specialize in is not effective in a given battle?

[Ting]

My suggestion was indeed spawned by looking at the AA class, but it is not at all restricted to it. Mages have spells that lower spell resistance, and they have several feats geared toward overcoming this defense (spell penetration). It is true that rogues have problems with the undead, but sneak attack is not all a rogue has to offer. In addition to being a utility class (pick lock, search, hide, disable trap) in the end a rogue can be a capable dex fighter.

I am not trying to say that the AA class needs help. I am trying to point out that with a resistance-heavy world like NS4 restricting the whole range of bows to one damage type will cripple them in the long run. Archers have a hard enough time as it is; ammo is expensive, a weapon that might cost 2500 gold will cost an archer ~980 gold for a single equivalent stack. Having more types of arrows will require an archer to buy an even larger supply of arrows... but at least they would have a chance of hurting the enemy.

[AndrewCarr]

I expect all classes to have strengths and weaknesses. But if something has 20 pierce resist or 25% piercing resist then the entire archer char is pwned because then it can't do damage effectively, and if it's lucky, is an AA with a couple fireball arrows.

is what? speak english please.

and as ive stated before, youre gonna need a back-up tactic regardless of what class you are.

And if it relied on one thing to make it uber heinous, like timestop +6 horrid wiltings or dev crit then i could consider a one trick pony. But as it is, the char relies on a bow and maybe maybe maybe, wizard or bard buffs if the person decided to waste points on cha or has extra int points. As it is, the character relies on a weapon, specializes in the weapon, and then becomes an effective character. Not a broken character that can be in turn owned by another broken character, but a character that generaly fits well into the "balance" of things. So see, what i have a problem with, is hurting archer classes for specializing in bows to become a decent char, while other classes can work around various resists and immunities.

are you not grasping the concept of having a back up tactic in the event that what you specialize in is not effective in a given battle?

You obviously know what pwned means. Not wasting my time.

I do know of the idea of a backup tactic, unfortunately the AA mostly focuses in bows. You could still go rapiers, which would probably be the most effective next weapon. If you have fighter levels you'd need to spend several feats to make them useful. But then again, they're piercing too, so you face the same problem. So you could go kukri's and exotic, and spend yet another feat, not worth it. So your next option is pretty much use longswords, and have crappy ab because they're str based, or spend feats on dual wielding and weapon finesse and go something like handaxes, and then you'll have a secondary weapon. A very crappy one.

[sep caldessian]

what about wands, scrolls, items with spells per day....?

[Ting]

what about wands, scrolls, items with spells per day....?

What about them? You will not be able to cast spells with a high enough level to be effective if you are focused in bows, and you are still only talking about the AA. Should a fighter-based bowman be completely out of luck?