More Thoughts on NS4 Characters

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LoZen
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More Thoughts on NS4 Characters

Post by LoZen »

After reading the "We'll try this again soon" at the end of the previous post about this, I decided to start with my own opinion.

There seems to be a lot of talk going around about class X not being as powerful as class Y or not being able to beat monster Z. While I agree that minor tweaks might be needed, I really think that many peoples' problems can all be solved by two things: Build and Tactics.

I know that many of you will already know all of this, but bear with me. After reading another post in which a player stated that he had used the default/recommended skills, feats, etc throughout the OC and expansions, and then meeting another barb in game who didn't know what knockdown was, I felt maybe some people might find this helpful.

Build
It is always good to plan ahead for each character that you want to make. You don't have to go crazy with this, but you need to know, for instance, that if you want to take the Disarm feat, you'll need a 13+ base INT. It is necessary to know the prerequisites you need for the feats you want your character to have, and also by what level you'll be able to meet those prerequisites. Planning is key. You want to build something that will be effective at low, mid, and high levels. If you suddenly realize at level 15 that you're character is hopelessly weak, there is nothing to do but start over. Save time by knowing what your character's goals are and when and if you can reach them.

The key thing here is that this is a whole new mod. You must build a character specifically for this world. Your single-player OC characters won't work here. Your NS3 characters no longer apply. Your Bastions of War PvP builds will probably be good at PvP, but there are a lot of other critters in this arena. And your scythe-wielding WM maybe be able to drop giants 6 at a time, but if an enemy PM/Wizard comes along, you're in trouble. We are all still adjusting to a new world. As time goes on, you will learn what works and what doesn't. The purpose of Beta is to find the things that the devs need to tweak, but keep in mind that this is not the "Who can level the fastest" or "Who owns in PvP" arena. It's NS4. Build accordingly. The idea is to have fun :)

Tactics
It has been said before, and I'll say it again. This mod was designed with parties in mind. Party to hunt, party to PvP. If you want to solo, you will have to have a versatile build. Now my barbarian at lvl 11 can take on 2 Chunkers and 3 Ogre Raiders at once without too much trouble. But I join up with others whenever I can. Why not take some free buffs and free firepower when it benefits all involved? And it also helps to prevent getting jumped by a hostile faction when you're out wandering around alone. The XP hit for hunting is marginal if you're all only a few levels apart, and you can just lay waste to everything!

And trust me, PvP is alot more fun when it's 5 on 5. Have an archer or rogue to attack enemy mages, or better - another mage. Dispel their mages, disable their melee. Have your cleric healing the tanks and Holding their foes. Casters, buff your melee's and provide support. Melee's, protect your casters and use those buffs to put the smackdown on your foes. There are so many different strategies that work well together. Learn to use them so that you compliment eachother. That way you'll just be whirling death to anything you come across. A killing machine.

To any of you who are having trouble with PvP, I'd strongly recommend trying out a PvP arena. My personal favorite is Bastions of War, and I have heard NWTactics is good also. You can learn a lot about adjusting your builds by trying some arena PvP action.

Tactics are very important in NS4. You have to know what you're up against, and adjust accordingly. A simple example would be the Ogres mentioned above. They had resistance/immunity to my katana (slashing) so I pulled out the warhammer (bludgeoning) and my damage output doubled. And PvP adds a whole other element. My barb has a good Fort save, so he can evade death magic, but his Will save sucks. Any kind of mind affecting spells and i'm standing there helpless, looking down the barrel of a mage. But if he doesn't stop me first, I knock him down, hit him with a called shot to the legs so he can't run away, and then I chop him to pieces. There are many basic and simple things like this that apply to both PvP and PvM.

I know that many of you are already aware of these things, and still have certain changes that you would like to be seen made. That is good. You are the people who will be able to most help the Devs with the changes that may or may not need to be made.

My only point is that it is a brand new mod, and even the fundamental things have changed. Be aware of that when you are suggesting what you think should go and what should stay.

See you in-game :)

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Post by bongoblue »

Exactly, tactics can mean survival.

Not that I have any tactics...

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Post by Æ »

I don't entirely disagree, but you can't say that everyone who's having problems is having them because they don't know how to build a character or strategically use their skills. I doubt that all the people who play melee'ers having trouble just coincidentally don't know what they're doing whereas all the people who play casters are smarter... you can't generalize like that. I've played on enough tactical servers, particularly the one's just starting out, to know that all the building expertise and tactical ingenuity in the world won't do any good if the DM's haven't yet balanced out the playing field yet. This is a beta, there are alot of imbalances and not even the devs deny this, and the point of this testing and of these forums are to provide them with feedback on player experiences in order to help them accomplish this goal of creating a more balanced PK environment.

Furthermore, many of us have lives and jobs and don't have the time to be experimenting with different builds in each campaign setting we play inand starting over all the time to cater them to the circumstances of the world... sometimes we have to be able to come up with builds that work for us on most servers, because we don't have the time to do anything else.

Furthermore... for the last 6 months of NS3 we were told to keep playing and experimenting with different builds in that setting to be used in NS4, not being told we would require entirely different building strategies in NS4... it's alot of wasted time, and I have more important creative projects in my life than experimenting with my D&D characters, and my gaming experience shouldn't be turned into work like my job and even my art work. I play this game to have some simple fun, to get away from working and tedium for a while, and would prefer not to have to go through the tedious process of starting a new character every time I learn something new about NS4... but that's kind of the reason why I'm not playing much anymore until the beta testing is over anyway.
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Post by Billiard »

Hmm, even in NS3 good high level casters would own high level melee characters. Mages also take quite a bit of planning and tactics as although their attacks are powerful, they are in limited supply. Lozen's 11th level Barb can tank a whole lot more ogre's than an 11th level mage, the mage has to pick off ogres one by one, rest, repeat. At 20th level this process of course comes much faster for the mage, but there is still the limited number of spell slots. A good mage just knows the right mixes to use.

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Post by Æ »

A tank has to take them one by one too, or he'll get flanked, surrounded, and torn up... and hack at them very slowly, with no summon to take all the damage for them. The problem is simply that everything has physical resistance/immunity but no comparable elemental/magical resistance/immunity
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Post by Billiard »

I agree that immunities could be a problem - but there are lots of critters that I have come across that seem to have at least some elemental immunity and I have had to switch tactics with my mage. Also, even though you might have a decent summons tank once it's been buffed, as soon as you start casting all them badies ignore it and head for you!

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Post by dond »

Æ wrote:A tank has to take them one by one too, or he'll get flanked, surrounded, and torn up... and hack at them very slowly, with no summon to take all the damage for them. The problem is simply that everything has physical resistance/immunity but no comparable elemental/magical resistance/immunity
there's tons and tons of weapons out there with elemental damage (not to mention the SoU stuff you can put on any weapon)

what really bugs me is fighters running around crying how their swords are getting resisted by undead...

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Post by LoZen »

What i'm trying to get across is that poeples' expectations of how their characters should be performing in this mod might be a little askew. I include myself in the group of us who are generally considered to be the "min/maxer, powergamer" type of player. We know when we have a good build on paper, and when it doesn't work out in actual gameplay, we are upset because we realized we were wrong in our assumptions. C'mon, i know that at least some of you out there know what i'm talking about.

I'm just saying, before you start crying "nerf this, nerf that" take into account the environment that you're playing in. This is NS4. It is a huge persistant world with a lot of custom scripting. It is intended for party play and a good amount of PvP. I would just like to assist people in understanding what they're getting into. There are a lot of new players who never played NS3, who have never been in a deathmatch, etc and we need to be aware of the new world we are in.

I have heard many complaints about how the damage resistance/immunity is killing fighter classes, and how anyone who is smart enough to realize that will roll up a mage as soon as posssible. I understand the complaints, and the reasons behind them. I just think that for all of you fighters who think you 'cant compete' with mages, and for everyone else: rethink your strategies.

An entirely new mod calls for an entirely new way of thinking about the game. 3 months from now there might be some weird, Uber build that, while being ridiculous from some other viewpoint, winds up being overpowering in NS4. It will take time, and as I said, to those of you who are already aware of this, keep the constructive criticism flowing. That's what Beta is all about.

But for those of you who are upset because that pally/bard/rdd just kicked your arse while you were hunting goblins, don't use that as an excuse to bring out the nerf stick. Learn to play in the new environment before you decide what needs to be changed. That's all i'm trying to say.

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Post by SmurfZG »

Billiard wrote:Hmm, even in NS3 good high level casters would own high level melee characters. Mages also take quite a bit of planning and tactics as although their attacks are powerful, they are in limited supply. Lozen's 11th level Barb can tank a whole lot more ogre's than an 11th level mage, the mage has to pick off ogres one by one, rest, repeat. At 20th level this process of course comes much faster for the mage, but there is still the limited number of spell slots. A good mage just knows the right mixes to use.
That's how it's supposed to be, but as of now, my lvl 9 druid can cast stone skin on himself and then 2 call lightnings and they're all dead.

I've also noticed that call lightning has been buffed.. why`?

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Post by Kelin »

I was going to post another endless reply but i tought that it would have been flamed so much, so i'll say just this:
strategy is good, but few strategy can stand balance problems.

Anyway we are still in a beta and we are giving feedback on how things work on field, and hopefully things will change with time, 'till ns4 reach an acceptable balance, then we can start talking of strategy :P
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Post by JesterOI »

SmurfZG wrote:
Billiard wrote:Hmm, even in NS3 good high level casters would own high level melee characters. Mages also take quite a bit of planning and tactics as although their attacks are powerful, they are in limited supply. Lozen's 11th level Barb can tank a whole lot more ogre's than an 11th level mage, the mage has to pick off ogres one by one, rest, repeat. At 20th level this process of course comes much faster for the mage, but there is still the limited number of spell slots. A good mage just knows the right mixes to use.
That's how it's supposed to be, but as of now, my lvl 9 druid can cast stone skin on himself and then 2 call lightnings and they're all dead.

I've also noticed that call lightning has been buffed.. why`?
I think you're right about Call Lightning being buffed up, it shouldn't do more than 60 damage regularily, and no more than 90 with empower.
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Post by ATI »

I agree totally....My druid build can handle ogres at lvl 14 all by himself. partying with others is icing on the cake. Why is it successful? Use spells that normally weren't useful. IE stonehold and inferno. A great combination for Tree Smashers. Having a party just helps ensure that I stay alive.
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Post by bongoblue »

dond wrote:what really bugs me is fighters running around crying how their swords are getting resisted by undead...
I wonder how many people don't realize they should use war hammers or maces against skeletons... :-)

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Post by DrakhanValane »

But not always. o_O
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