Change to shifters (all shapes not just shifters)

[Rufio]

comparing casters to meleers is comparing apples to oranges.

Man, I keep posting here like I am arguing with people, but I am not arguing against the nerf or for the nerf, just arguing a tangent that no one else is talking about. I'm confused. I am going to stop.

[cRaZy8or5e]

There's a lot of anger and hostility in this thread. It's bumming my chi. Everyone was more content and happy when I played. Coincidence? I think not.

QFT

Thanks for pointing out my AC error Mining.

Fezz you have tapioca for brains and dung for manners. Go relieve the pain in your nogin and go soak your head . . . in a vat of acid .

comparing casters to meleers is comparing apples to oranges.

Man, I keep posting here like I am arguing with people, but I am not arguing against the nerf or for the nerf, just arguing a tangent that no one else is talking about. I'm confused. I am going to stop.

QFT as well.

TrueFalse is correct that you can build a stunning fist blinding speed autoquickened dragon with hellball and greater ruin w/only +2 books. But if you want to squeeze in epic sp foc conj and a dragon knight, then you have to drop a couple feats, I would drop greater ruin and autoquick III. I like my armorskin .

[Eldaquen]

Actually I was considering and looking at a wizard/sd to use with shapechange spell. Mages do have a shape to fall back on if they choose to.

I built, well in process, of a druid/sd using shape change, which is more fun than a druid dragon even though the dragon stats are significantly less and do not have the +11 claw bonus. Course it is successful not because of the shapechange: dragon shape but because of hips. Hips makes almost anything good.

[Bargeld]

My first toon post-wipe was a wiz fight WM, balor shape. You may find an unpleasant surprise at the end of the shapechange spell path. I know I did.

[Eldaquen]

Oh I would only use shapechange with SD. AC is to low otherwise to work without hips to hide that weakness.

[mining]

My first toon post-wipe was a wiz fight WM, balor shape. You may find an unpleasant surprise at the end of the shapechange spell path. I know I did.

Didn't you get hit by bad luck with weapons? I think I recall reading that.

Make a 35/5 mage/SD sometime and see what AC, HP, disc, conc, tumble, hide, ms, spot you get. 320 hp unbuffed with a book, 46 AC, 0 disc, 53 conc + gear, 95/88 hide/ms with gear, 105 spot unfocused. And you have to run around like that without any shapes to fall back on through all your battles. You don't even use a staff half the time cuz even a monk will disarm you. You just can't have everything.

320 HP, sucks. I agree. AC, sucks, I agree. Disc, sucks, I agree. Conc... Well, stuff is buggy, but it still sucks. HiPS, on the other hand, means any non keen senses build, is screwed. Mage gives you all sorts of cool stuff to play with too. Its a flawed build, but flawed in a way that can be covered up to a certain degree.

[Bargeld]

My first toon post-wipe was a wiz fight WM, balor shape. You may find an unpleasant surprise at the end of the shapechange spell path. I know I did.

Didn't you get hit by bad luck with weapons? I think I recall reading that.

That was one issue, a weapon change (by the devs) late in my build. But that is correctable on a rebuild. Shapechange spell doesn't get the nifty +11 ab claws that shifter/druid/rdd get. There is 0 ab bonus.

[mining]

My first toon post-wipe was a wiz fight WM, balor shape. You may find an unpleasant surprise at the end of the shapechange spell path. I know I did.

Didn't you get hit by bad luck with weapons? I think I recall reading that.

That was one issue, a weapon change (by the devs) late in my build. But that is correctable on a rebuild. Shapechange spell doesn't get the nifty +11 ab claws that shifter/druid/rdd get. There is 0 ab bonus.

HiPS is nice, and pretty groovy on dragons, and I still like the damage on fire breath. But yeah, you're right. Balor form used to be pretty nice though, low 60s AB and mid 70s AC, or so I saw? Can't really remember, was almost a year ago now.

[Bargeld]

As per shapechange (20 bab buffed with bulls, wis, haste, shield):

[rocketkai]

Didn't you get hit by bad luck with weapons? I think I recall reading that.

I believe there was another change (not reflected in the change log) regarding all shape change (not just spells) that completely screwed that build. You were able to cast one spell (could be considered as an exploit) after you are shifted. For example, you could cast shape change spell to be a balor and then cast tenser once to booste yer ab. But well they have fixed it, so it doesn't matter anyway.

[Shhhhhhh]

Plus now they fixed the double dodge boots, it doesnt matter for sure

[mining]

Plus now they fixed the double dodge boots, it doesnt matter for sure

\
And you used to be able to cast tensors then scrollchange.

[dethonlegs]

My first toon post-wipe was a wiz fight WM, balor shape. You may find an unpleasant surprise at the end of the shapechange spell path. I know I did.

Man, what a downer. I was looking to do something different like this but you've already been there, done that, got burnt. Thanks for posting the stats on those shapes. Craptacular!

[Bargeld]

Bug may have existed, but i would'nt have used tensor anyway, had 14 fighter/6 wm pre-epic anyway (20 bab). I got screwed by focusing in greatsword (which the summon still has) and then it was changed to bast sword for the shape, so weapon feats were wasted.

The above stats are as they stand today, with 20 bab and some minor buffs, wielding greatsword. Like i sed, you could go bast sword and pick up like 3 ab but you still are stuck with the rest of it.

The point i was trying to make was more towards elda's claims that shapechange spell was viable. It is much different than druid/shifter/rdd and for all purposes it is useless and shouldn't enter into comparison in this discussion.

[SkotG]

......I don't quite know why shifters need to use boots twice most of us make use with one pair at a time.

Yes, but four paws need 2 sets of boots!